1G Help with choosing camshafts

[AlmightySo]

Hey, I'm current in the process of building my 1g block, I've got the head almost there but I need help choosing cams. Here is what I currently have on the head.

GSC Intake Valves STD
GSC Exhaust Valves +1mm
Kiggly Steel Street Beehive Springs

My plans for this car is for a fun weekend warrior. Current turbo options are 68HTA or a FP Green.
I'll be getting DSM link in the future once I'm closer to the end.
Looking for quick spool and hard hitting 350-400HP possibly. Don't want to go to crazy, just want to have some fun.

 

[97egl]

You can easily make 400 on stock cams. (Side note I'd stick with 350hp personally. 400 is pushing the limits of the transmission)

Bigger cams make an engine less streetable. Best thing to do is invest the money in tuning software, then fuel supply (injectors/pump/regulator), and then a bigger turbo. Tuning software is the first thing you need tho. You are doing it backwards to be getting a bigger turbo and then tuning software.

 

[curt-s]

Indeed.
You haven't listed if you have an ECU solution so we'll assume you don't.

If you don't have any turbo at all yet, and you don't have an extensive background with DSMs, I'd suggest you go to a used 14b first. It's amazing how you can wake them up with link and some tweaks.
Next you'll run out of fuel, so injectors and a pump. This is where you go bigger from the start as it's not cheap swapping those out multiple times. Stay on the small turbo.
Once you're comfortable with link, move to the bigger turbo.
Even then you won't really run out of cam to the point where it's really holding you back.
The bigger the cam, the more you give up in low end.
It's one thing to bolt parts on to an engine, it's entirely another to make them all work together (shamelessly stolen from that groaner of a movie, Born2Race)

Your margin for error is a lot bigger with a smaller turbo. If you're not familiar with link that could spell trouble.
That's not to say you couldn't go big and keep it low boost until you figure stuff out -- that's your call, though, but it will be disappointing at low boost.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Make 250whp reliably first, then step up to a 16G and do low-mid 300’s reliably first. Tuning yourself the whole way. By the time you’re done with that it’ll have taught you the nature of how to keep a DSM running and reliable, and you’ll know intimately what you’ll need to 400HP and beyond.

 

[curt-s]

Maybe by then somebody will produce transmission / transfer case / differential parts again.

 

[explicitgst]

Maybe by then somebody will produce transmission / transfer case / differential parts again.

Here's hoping. Lord knows they're becoming harder and harder to find.

 

[ist dwa]

GSC S2

 

[AlmightySo]

Yea you guys are right, let me gain some experience with tuning first. Stock cams/cam gears, 16G +ecm link. This is what’s going in the block, so hopefully it can take the upgrade in the future. Eagle H rods, wiseco 8.3:1, balance shaft delete, with straight cut gears. 1g in a 2g project

 

[AlmightySo]

My other concern is does the +1mm over exhaust valves hurt anything with the std intake valves for the stock cams

 

[curt-s]

Hurt? No. Help at the 16G power level? Also no. The stock head with stock sized valves is capable of much more than 500hp.

The rest of your setup is also good for more than 500. A stock manual transmission, which is basically all that there is anymore without going dogbox or crazier, will be the first thing to grenade even before 500hp.

If you keep boost under 12-14psi, you will have enough stock injector with the 16g. A 16g won't feel particularly fast at 14psi, but don't be discouraged. Learn the ropes at that level first because next after this would be injectors+afpr+fuel pump. Then you can start turning up the boost slowly until you have a solid tune at 20psi. Because the higher you go, the narrower your margin for error gets. It will be a world of difference at 20 when the 16G starts to really wake up, but you need to take baby steps if you're investing this much in a motor.

 

[AlmightySo]

Hurt? No. Help at the 16G power level? Also no. The stock head with stock sized valves is capable of much more than 500hp.

The rest of your setup is also good for more than 500. A stock manual transmission, which is basically all that there is anymore without going dogbox or crazier, will be the first thing to grenade even before 500hp.

If you keep boost under 12-14psi, you will have enough stock injector with the 16g. A 16g won't feel particularly fast at 14psi, but don't be discouraged. Learn the ropes at that level first because next after this would be injectors+afpr+fuel pump. Then you can start turning up the boost slowly until you have a solid tune at 20psi. Because the higher you go, the narrower your margin for error gets. It will be a world of difference at 20 when the 16G starts to really wake up, but you need to take baby steps if you're investing this much in a motor.

Ok, ill look into getting the evo3 16g. Extreme PSI is have a sale on them right now. $790. Good deal?

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

 

[1cleangsx]

Yes that’s a VERY good deal on a VERY reliable VERY fun turbo

 

[AlmightySo]

Awesome, looks like I’ll need a evo3 o2 housing. Guess the 1/2g one doesn’t fit

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

Awesome, looks like I’ll need a evo3 o2 housing. Guess the 1/2g one doesn’t fit

You do NOT need the Evo 3 o2 housing. While a ported Evo 3 o2 housing is an upgrade over a ported 1g/2g unit, it is not necessary and requires modification to the downpipe to make it work. A ported 1g/2g will do just fine, and difference vs an evo 3 housing won’t be noticeable from the driver seat. Whatever you do stay away from the cheap tubular ones on EBay, they’re made from crappy thin material that doesn’t hold up and the angle is so sharp they’re a downgrade over the ported stock one, and the gains from a $500 hand fabricated stainless one are so minimal over a ported stock one you’d never notice it so I wouldn’t waste money there either unless you plan to go with a bigger “bolt on” turbo later and want every last bit out of it. A ported stock 1g unit with my last Evo3 16g was good enough for 420whp and 430wtq.

 

[curt-s]

This above.

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

The way I look at it is a ported stock o2 housing is plenty sufficient for any internally gated “bolt on” unit, especially when you upgrade later and require one with a wastegate provision if you stay with a bolt in set up or decide you want to go with an external gate later with the 16g. You’ll be kicking yourself you spent money you’ll have to spend again on an external gate o2 housing when a good stock one can be had for 20 bucks and the port work can be had with some carbide bits and a couple hours of free time. Plus along with the dyno results I had, another buddy of mine went 10.90s consistently with a 68hta and a ported 1g o2 housing in his auto fwd car, so they’re tried and true until you’re ready for one with a wastegate provision.

 

[AlmightySo]

Ah, thanks guys. Porting it out shouldn’t be any issue and saves the headache of the downpipe alignment. & I stay away from eBay parts, learned my lessons years ago

 

[92AWDHX40]

Sounds like a great start

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

Also to point out with the original topic, if you have it apart already and you’re not looking to go crazy in the future no harm in doing cams now given you’ll have a tuning solution. While many of the 264 duration cams still available are a great match for a 16g, the milder 272 cams out there do well while being able to go a ways with a bigger turbo later before really needing to upgrade. I personally used BC 272s with my last 16g set up, while many people will knock BC cams for this platform they proved well matched, all while doing well with my hx35 and s363 later on. Never degreed them or anything, however they were older earlier ones, I’ve heard rumors their latest grinds don’t do as well without degreeing. From the engine management standpoint I’ve always had a way to tune myself, but we’ve put BC 272’s and other milder 272’s in cars utilizing the stock ecu with no tuning over the years with no critical bad effects, as in fuel trims were in range so they idled and drove as they should, and while you’re not getting the most out of them with no tuning data logs showed wide open throttle to be equally as safe.

 

[AlmightySo]

Hey guys, about to attempt to port the o2 housing for the evo 3 big 16g, there’s like no room/ material for the wastegate portion, what do you guys think?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[jed344]

Something mild. GSC s1, hks 272, ect. GSC s2 would be a little to much top end IMO. Over the last 15 years we have used 264/272 hks, 272/272hks, GSC s1 s2 s3, BC 272, 280 , 288. Likely more i am forgetting. Goals like that s1 or 264/272 hks would be my vote.

 

[curt-s]

If cams MUST happen at this stage, this is the best recommendation.

 

[AlmightySo]

Something mild. GSC s1, hks 272, ect. GSC s2 would be a little to much top end IMO. Over the last 15 years we have used 264/272 hks, 272/272hks, GSC s1 s2 s3, BC 272, 280 , 288. Likely more i am forgetting. Goals like that s1 or 264/272 hks would be my vote.

Would the 264/272 be alright to run without a tune? Or will these need to be tuned, hoping to keep tuning out of the picture until the end.

 

[90fiveGSX]

Maybe by then somebody will produce transmission / transfer case / differential parts again.

Seems like White Shed Speed and Neat Gear Boxes are trying.

 

[90fiveGSX]

Here's some info on different camshaft setups in 4g63's that DSPORT magazine tested in Evo's. This might have some helpful concepts you can reference: https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/showcase/camshafts-mitsubishi-4g63-evo/final-results/