ECMlink Timing Jumping at Idle?!

[doubleclutch]

First off:
1). Any boost, vac, or exhaust leaks? No
Boost leak tested 5psi above your max boost with no leaks? Yes

2). Verified mechanical timing? Yes

3). Verified base timing? Can't Yet (see post)

4). Ignition system
COP or Stock Coil: Stock
Wire brand and Age: LC2 - 0 Miles
Spark Plug brand, type and Gap: NGK BPR5es

5). Motor health (Compression Test) incomplete
Cylinder 1:
Cylinder 2:
Cylinder 3:
Cylinder 4:

6). Performed basic throttle body adjustments?
Idle Switch: yes
Throttle Cable: Yes
TPS: Yes
BISS: YEs

7). Compression ratio: Stock

8). Any known bad sensors or brittle wiring? No

9). Any DTC/CEL codes? No

10). Electrical system
Car off (not running):
Car running: 14.4

11). Base fuel pressure and injector values
Base Fuel Pressure: Stock 42.6psi
Injector Size (cc/min): Stock 450

12). Properly calibrated and configured wideband sensor
Sensor Brand: LC2
Calibration Date: 4/28/16

13). Type of fuel
Type: Premium
Percent of Ethanol: 10%

14). Watched ECMlink how-to videos? Yes


OK So:
I was going through this list after my 16G, fuel pump rewire, and LC2 install preparing to tune and found that my mechanical timing was off 15deg. I pulled the timing belt and reset it to where it should be. Started the car ran ok for 10-15 secs. Unhooked the battery and re-did the belt for piece of mind (forgot to put sealant on the tensioner bolts) and put it all back together. I fired it up and now it is jumping the base timing all over. I am at a loss. I completed a BLT and no leaks. The log is attached below. With some throttle it does fine. Without it it runs crazy bad. The boost gauge also vibrates around 10 inhg when not on the throttle.

I was able to get the air/rev where it needs to be and the ISC. it helped a little, but the fuel trims are going crazy too.

Any help would be great.

Thanks!

 

[pauleyman]

Ignition timing and mechanical timing are totally different. Ignition timing should jump around unless you ground the timing connector.

 

[doubleclutch]

Base timing should move, but not like that. Did you look at the log?

 

[doubleclutch]

After doing some reading, it sounds like my belt may be too loose. Going to go back in and see what happens.

 

[tmoney20g]

Why is "Wideband Air/Fuel" that you have added to your displayable values, only showing 22.4 ? is the o2 sensor out in free air for some reason ?

Knock CEL should be set lower, i like to use 2 degrees for CEL.

On the Misc tab, why do you have "disable airflow smoothing" checked, when you're not on SD ?

If you're using stock 2g maf, why do you have "disable mafcomp with SD", if you're not on SD ?

FPS/EGR tabs, I like to check "enable factory settings", whether you have those modules on the car or not.

Also, capture LTFT Lo and LTFT Mid, I have a feeling your idle/injectors aren't set correctly, even tho they are stock.


the term "base timing" can not be seen in a log. it can only be seen with a timing light, either at the cam gears with an advance light set to 5 BTDC, or at the timing cover.

 

[doubleclutch]

Why is "Wideband Air/Fuel" that you have added to your displayable values, only showing 22.4 ? is the o2 sensor out in free air for some reason ?

That is just what it is reading at idle. If i blip the throttle it moves back down.

Knock CEL should be set lower, i like to use 2 degrees for CEL.

FPS/EGR tabs, I like to check "enable factory settings", whether you have those modules on the car or not.

Will do.

On the Misc tab, why do you have "disable airflow smoothing" checked, when you're not on SD ?

If you're using stock 2g maf, why do you have "disable mafcomp with SD", if you're not on SD ?

No idea why I would have changed either of these. Not sure what they do exactly. Could that help fix my problem?

Also, capture LTFT Lo and LTFT Mid, I have a feeling your idle/injectors aren't set correctly, even tho they are stock.

Will do. Since I "fixed" the timing and added the bigger turbo, should I reset all my fuel trims?

the term "base timing" can not be seen in a log. it can only be seen with a timing light, either at the cam gears with an advance light set to 5 BTDC, or at the timing cover.

True, The value that is jumping around significantly is my timing advance as seen in ECMlink.

 

[tmoney20g]

That is just what it is reading at idle. If i blip the throttle it moves back down.
No idea why I would have changed either of these. Not sure what they do exactly. Could that help fix my problem?
Will do. Since I "fixed" the timing and added the bigger turbo, should I reset all my fuel trims?

uncheck those, add the LTFT's to your log, get a new hot idle log for us to look at. don't worry about resetting fuel trims.

 

[doubleclutch]

Will do as soon as I get home tonight. Thanks for the help.

 

[chrysler kid]

Unless you have adjustable cam gears you should not be adjusting mechanical timing. You need to reset the belt and all components to TDC

 

[doubleclutch]

New log is attached after changing the things discussed above. It might have helped a little, but definitely didn't fix the problem.

 

[doubleclutch]

Unless you have adjustable cam gears you should not be adjusting mechanical timing. You need to reset the belt and all components to TDC

Not sure where I gave this impression, but everything is timed to TDC mechanically.

 

[tmoney20g]

New log is attached after changing the things discussed above. It might have helped a little, but definitely didn't fix the problem.

HOT idle, meaning coolant temp is above 180F. give me 5 minutes of above 180F idling...

 

[gofer]

...unless you ground the timing connector VIA ECMLink software or physically ground it then it's going to jump. You need to ground the timing connector and check base timing to 5*BTDC. Curb idle speed, per the FSM, needs to be at 750rpm too.

THAT BEING SAID... you have a 2g CAS in your photos so your base timing isn't adjustable so if the car's idling then it's set, the CAS isn't adjustable therefor neither is your base timing.

 

[doubleclutch]

OK so let me be more clear. The spark advance is jumping all over. This makes it impossible to determine the base timing due to RPMS being all over the place.

I will get a hot idle tonight. I thought i warmed the car up enough.

 

[gofer]

Let me be MORE clear, your base timing IS NOT adjustable so checking it means nothing.

If your 2g CAS is installed and bolted to the back of the head base timings set. Unless you ground the timing connector then timings going to move in the log because that's what it's supposed to do. You're trying to fix... nothing...

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Not sure where I gave this impression, but everything is timed to TDC mechanically.

Timing SHOULD be 5* BTDC set with a timing light not through link. Unless the timing tab is grounded, your timing will vary as it should. Ground the connector. It sounds like you are trying to time your car with link, is that what you are doing or have you set the mechanical timing with a light at 5* BTDC and told link to ground the timing?

 

[doubleclutch]

Let me be MORE clear, your base timing IS NOT adjustable so checking it means nothing.

If your 2g CAS is installed and bolted to the back of the head base timings set. Unless you ground the timing connector then timings going to move in the log because that's what it's supposed to do. You're trying to fix... nothing...

From looking at what I am seeing in my logs that i have posted above, the "timing" variable given by link is spark advance. I understand it should vary at idle. My impression is it should not vary from 5* to 20* every second. Also, when the pin is grounded via link, it does not stop the cyclic movement of the spark advance.

I may be trying to fix the wrong thing, but I am definitely not trying to fix nothing. The car shouldn't idle like it is.

Timing SHOULD be 5* BTDC set with a timing light not through link. Unless the timing tab is grounded, your timing will vary as it should. Ground the connector. It sounds like you are trying to time your car with link, is that what you are doing or have you set the mechanical timing with a light at 5* BTDC and told link to ground the timing?

1) you can't SET base timing with a light only check it.
2) the timing is varying by what i believe to be excessive amounts, see comment above.
3)Mechanical timing is set mechanically i.e. the timing belt and that is set to 0* as stated in the original post, and no I am not trying to vary mechanical timing

I haven't tried to change my base timing at all in link or by the CAS (which isn't possible anyway). I am simply trying to get the car to idle properly and in my opinion the timing seems to be fairly erratic. and possibly the cause of the poor idle. Due to the amount it jumps around even with the pin grounded I really don't have a basis to go off of anyways.

Can someone with a 2g post a log of what their idle looks like? I would like how much the spark advance is moving in their log.

 

[jery1234]

The jumping timing at idle is a ecu way to control rpm to be steady (not grounded , just like esc) You should concentrate at tuning the idle . Ad MAFRau to displayed values so it can logged (that will allow you to use maf comp adjust combined ft tool ) for cruise tune .If you look at the end of last log STFT is demanding 8% LTFTLo 12.5% of fuel so add like 100-150ms to global dead time & check stft again , also add ISC position to be logged so you can adjust the biss screw ( unknown ) If you want to calm the rpm now just change the timing to 5*in the 1000 rpm range in the max timing table . Post back hot idle log

 

[doubleclutch]

Ad MAFRau to displayed values so it can logged (that will allow you to use maf comp adjust combined ft tool ) for cruise tune .If you look at the end of last log STFT is demanding 8% LTFTLo 12.5% of fuel so add like 100-150ms to global dead time & check stft again , also add ISC position to be logged so you can adjust the biss screw ( unknown )

Thanks for the useful feedback, MAFRaw and ISC position should be in there, but I will double check. I did adjust the BISS, but with idle jumping around it could possibly use a finer tuning.

So what your saying is that the floating timing is a crude way for the engine to control idle when other things are out of wack?

 

[jery1234]

Floating timing is is one of the ecu ways to control steady rpm at idle , isc is doing it too & it has to be set to 30 +or - & to set the isc you need to ground the timing connector via link or manually . I believe the injector pulse command is controlling steady rpm too . As soon as you get STFT , LTFTLo, ISC in check engine should run much smoother . And for better results change the timing to 5* in 1000 rpm range (only first upper row ) .

 

[doubleclutch]

5 mins of idle above 180*F attached. I added 150us of dead time and that brought the STFT hoverin around 0%. LTFT Lo dropped quite a bit after it hit 180*F. ISCposition was 36 which i don't think is too bad. I can bring it down to 30 if needed. Airflowperrev still seemed ok.

 

[doubleclutch]

Log with both timing tables changed to 5 in the first three columns of the first row. Seemed to move the midpoint of the oscillations down, but didn't affect the amplitude.

 

[tmoney20g]

better. lower mafcomp at 50hz a click, it seems your average airflowperrev in the log is .27 when .24-.25 is desirable.

LTFT Lo is now +8 to +10, add deadtime 3 clicks, wait two minutes for a new LTFT Lo to stabilize, repeat until it's more or less at 0%

 

[jery1234]

How old is your o2 sensor? I don't like the way it is cycling ( way too fast ) . And what is going on with the wb? Add some more of global dead time ^

 

[doubleclutch]

LTFT Lo is ~0% now. It moves around when the fans come on. Log attached.

Still jumping around a bit, but it seems like it is trying to idle right.

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Video of the boost gauge and you can hear the lopey idle too.