Oil pump failure

[TWOpointFORliter]

Made my first ever passes at the shootout this year and after my 3rd run I started leaking oil inside of the timing cover. Thought I pushed the oil pump seal out so I parked the car till I could get it back home and tear into it.

Well after getting it tore down I found that not only did I push the seal but the shaft was not centered and eating into the front case. This is a very expensive long block built by a very reputable shop and had a brand new front case/oil pump. I never double checked their work on the timing side of the engine but one would assume they knew what they were doing for setting proper tension on the belt. Engine has about 5,000 miles, 6 passes at the strip and a few dyno pulls.

My question is can anything cause this other than improper belt tension?

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[We're on Boost]

Bummer!

What’s the limit for the stubby shaft in terms of engine torque output (I made 634 on a mustang dyno) or rpm’s (8200 rpm’s in the 1/4).

Tim Zimmer's car used the OEM stub oil pump shaft. His car was over 1,000 hp. In 2021 he said he was "Still on the same oil pump from 2008." His engine was a 7-Bolt Split Thrust Bearing 2.3 Liter.

No I am not logging oil pressure but I will after this.

I see you have a gauge though. What kind of oil pressures were you normally getting on the gauge at high rpm, before things went wrong?

I don't see what you are using for an oil pan. It wasn't my idea to put a Moroso oil pan on my car. English Racing told me it would be advisable for slosh control, so I said ok.

 

[bastarddsm]

Check that the oil passages in the gear and pump cover are not plugged. Either someone f***ed up building it, the oil level in the pan got too low from low oil or windage, or sometimes it just sucks to suck.

the problem was not due to too tight a belt - that is simply not possible unless you are completely braindead when assembling it. The problem was not due to a stub shaft, and the problem was not due to helical or straight cut gears.

It's really hysterical how clueless most are about this stuff. Follow the oil path and see where that surface actually gets oil from. You'll be amazed that they work at all.

 

[TWOpointFORliter]

That looks like an oem front cover but can you 100% confirm that it is oem? the knockoffs from China are getting better and better. An over tight timing belt will generally whine at idle, did you notice any whining when it was at idle? Those bearings look like they had shrapnel ran across them, likely from the metal shavings from the pump failure. So was that oil track though the pits from your car? I had heard it was from a Honda.

Yes it’s an oem front case that I purchased through extremepsi and dropped if will all my other parts to be built and the only whining I heard was from the dogbox. As for the oil down in the pits yes and no. I did leave a small trail of oil back to my pit but nothing like what that Honda did. They didn’t even clean mine up. My trail was on the road closet to the track and started about where club diamond star sets up and ended by the AMS crew.

I see you have a gauge though. What kind of oil pressures were you normally getting on the gauge at high rpm, before things went wrong?

I don't see what you are using for an oil pan. It wasn't my idea to put a Moroso oil pan on my car. English Racing told me it would be advisable for slosh control, so I said ok.

Honestly I’ve made so few passes at high rpm’s with this setup that I’m usually paying attention to the wideband, rpm’s and the road. All these gauges and so little time to look at them. I’m just in the oem 7bolt oil pan with no modifications. I will be looking into any and all pan/pickup mods that can be done to a 7 bolt before this engine goes back together.

Check that the oil passages in the gear and pump cover are not plugged. Either someone f***ed up building it, the oil level in the pan got too low from low oil or windage, or sometimes it just sucks to suck.

the problem was not due to too tight a belt - that is simply not possible unless you are completely braindead when assembling it. The problem was not due to a stub shaft, and the problem was not due to helical or straight cut gears.

It's really hysterical how clueless most are about this stuff. Follow the oil path and see where that surface actually gets oil from. You'll be amazed that they work at all.

Thank you as always for your wisdom. Oil starvation was my initial thoughts when it happened but had a lot of people telling me it was belt tension. The heat in the bearings speak for itself though. Any pan/pickup mods that you know of for 7 bolts? Everything I come across is for 6 bolts.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Can't you just run a 1g pickup?

 

[TWOpointFORliter]

Can't you just run a 1g pickup?

Idk can’t find anything that says either way and I don’t have any 1g stuff on hand to compare the 2. Was probably gonna get a evo and a 1g pickup to see what I can make work.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I have a 2g pump with the original pickup. I will see if the 1g pickup will bolt up and be in the same place. I bet it is. I will check when I get home for all of us.

 

[steve]

Wasn't there some difference as to where/if it bolted to the block, or am I thinking of another car?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Well a 1g has a "leg" on it that bolts to a main cap bolt but I cut them off since I run Kiggly Girdles. It looks like it was for stability. Hell maybe my pickup tube came loose on my red Talon, that has yet to be determined, BUT I HAVE PICTURES.
This is a 7 bolt oil pump with its 2g pickup and then with a 1g pickup. If there is a difference it might be in the oil pan area since the 2g is a bulb and the 1g is a pancake.
I can test a 2g pickup on my 1g pump and see if the oil pan fits, but I don't have a open 7 bolt at the moment, to test a 2g pump with a 1g pickup. It looks like it's fine unless the pan interferes with the pickup tube.
Here we are...

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[TWOpointFORliter]

Thanks for the pictures. Looks like a 1g pickup is in my future but the evo pickup looks promising also. Might not even need the kiggly mod for the evo pickup.

 

[TWOpointFORliter]

Tore into the car a little more tonight. I know you guys love carnage photos so enjoy. Still can’t fathom what could have cause my trigger plate to be damaged like that.

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[97egl]

Just a note on the 6 bolt pick-up tube on a 7 bolt engine. The hole in the oil pan baffle will have to be enlarged to fit the wider pick-up screen part through it. Other than that it bolts in without issue

Another oiling issue you may want to look at if you haven't is the drain backs in the cylinder head. I have seen some drain backs that had such bad casting flaws they were about 1/4 of the way blocked.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Agree about the head drains. I usually grind the flash casting out like I do on SBC blocks for oil return.