2G In search of the e85 hx40 guys.

[Cynxe]

Looking for some help with a timing curve and fuel maps. Im currently at 30psi. And have adjusted fairly accordingly, but my car kinda bogs down at around 24psi. Looking for some pictures of maps or maybe even a tune i can reflash and modify.
Pte 1200s
E85
30psi hx40
Black box ecu
Speed density

 

[Vegas Smith]

Do you not use the SD Adjust tool to dial in cruise? It sounds like you recommend doing it manually?

 

[Cynxe]

Do you not use the SD Adjust tool to dial in cruise? It sounds like you recommend doing it manually?

Its ecuflash not dsmlink unfortunately

 

[Vegas Smith]

Ahh, that's right.

 

[97gsxIA]

Do you not use the SD Adjust tool to dial in cruise? It sounds like you recommend doing it manually?

I don't even use it that much in link. Unfortunately here in Iowa it can be 45* outside in the morning and 85* in the afternoon. Couple that with big cams, 2150s that arent as friendly to lower injector pulses, and the SDtempweighting factor-- the VE table can start having big jumps between 1.5K-3K cruising cells. Going in by hand and doing tweaks for the "middle ground" is our burden to bare.

I will say its a nice tool to get your table close to where it needs to be though.

 

[Vegas Smith]

Are you cruising say at 3k and manually checking fuel trims for that cell, then adjusting right then and there? I'm starting to learn how to tune myself and I figured the tool in the link was all you needed.

 

[Cynxe]

I don't even use it that much in link. Unfortunately here in Iowa it can be 45* outside in the morning and 85* in the afternoon. Couple that with big cams, 2150s that arent as friendly to lower injector pulses, and the SDtempweighting factor-- the VE table can start having big jumps between 1.5K-3K cruising cells. Going in by hand and doing tweaks for the "middle ground" is our burden to bare.

I will say its a nice tool to get your table close to where it needs to be though.

Private message me

 

[kmetiuk]

Are you cruising say at 3k and manually checking fuel trims for that cell, then adjusting right then and there? I'm starting to learn how to tune myself and I figured the tool in the link was all you needed.

Kind of ya.....I mean I pull the car over before messing with it obvs.

Basically you use fuel trims when running in closed loop (so cursing/idle) and when running in open loop use the WB and AFREst (or WBfactor) to find where the SD table needs massaging.

I have never used the SD Adjust tool as keeping the MAF for my setup was never an option (4" intake on the holset and waaaaay to much work to fab it in) The SD Adjust tool uses the MAF table (for the SDratio) that was calibrated using the MAF sensor before you switched to SD. The SD Adjust (Combined fuel trims) prolly works but I always found when using the MAF adjust, which uses combinedFT, the tool was always boucning back and forth over the sweet spot so when I did it manually I got much better results, and was waaaay faster, so I have just stuck with doing it all manually.

 

[97gsxIA]

Are you cruising say at 3k and manually checking fuel trims for that cell, then adjusting right then and there? I'm starting to learn how to tune myself and I figured the tool in the link was all you needed.

If I am on a clear road and a I see a consistent value I don't like, sometimes, yeah. But it's dangerous to be fiddling with a tablet while driving so I'll always recommend just doing a log and scrubbing the timeline to make changes afterwards while parked or the car off, you can achieve the same results without needing to take your eyes off the road.

In 90% of cases I'd say run the tool and tweak it afterwards by hand. Both using a cruising log with the openloop thresholds bumped up (as is standard practice). The other 10% are for neurotic tuners such as myself.

My car has transitioned to taking over my entire life, so whats spending another hour tuning my cruise? I seem to have just done it so much by hand that I just skip using the tool all together anymore.


My car's a soul draining succubus who likes to play rough. I am a weak man succumbing to her will. We do alright together.

 

[Vegas Smith]

WTH? I'm not supposed to tune while driving? Hell, am I supposed to use the brakes as well?

Just to confirm, and I'm sorry for quasi hijacking this thread, you would take a 10 minute log and then just go back and look at fuel trims at random spots on the log? Where do you decided to make a change on SD cell? Thanks again.

 

[blktalon3]

Yeah vegas, one thing I find helpful is to do a cruise log with it locked it open loop. When you look at the log just have your wbo2 and afrest up on the the graph, pretty much you want the two lines on top of each other so anywhere they're seperated you need to make an adjustment. You'll probably never get them perfect but the closer the better

 

[97gsxIA]

Yeah vegas, one thing I find helpful is to do a cruise log with it locked it open loop. When you look at the log just have your wbo2 and afrest up on the the graph, pretty much you want the two lines on top of each other so anywhere they're seperated you need to make an adjustment. You'll probably never get them perfect but the closer the better

You can do that to make sure your global injector scaling is correct (hint you can do that on idle as well), but cruise tuning is a closedloop operation. You shouldn't be in openloop ever in cruise to tune it. In fact you should be locking your car in closedloop for entirety of the cruise log by adjusting the openloop thresholds in your Direct Access tabs.

I'm hoping you just got the two confused.

 

[Vegas Smith]

Yeah vegas, one thing I find helpful is to do a cruise log with it locked it open loop. When you look at the log just have your wbo2 and afrest up on the the graph, pretty much you want the two lines on top of each other so anywhere they're seperated you need to make an adjustment. You'll probably never get them perfect but the closer the better

I think you're referring to WOT tuning though. I was talking about tuning cruise.

 

[97gsxIA]

WTH? I'm not supposed to tune while driving? Hell, am I supposed to use the brakes as well?

Just to confirm, and I'm sorry for quasi hijacking this thread, you would take a 10 minute log and then just go back and look at fuel trims at random spots on the log? Where do you decided to make a change on SD cell? Thanks again.

Lock it in closedloop with the openloop thesholds -> go drive for 20-30 minutes going up and down hills, on and off the throttle, turns etc etc. (basically get as much data as you can) -> let the car idle for 2 minutes -> stop the log -> stop the car -> run the SDadjust(fuel trim) tool -> smooth out cells by interpolating the cells in rough spots -> save to ecu -> start the car and go do another log, come back and repeat the previous steps and change cells by hand based on fuel trim data.

Don't forget to go back and set your openloop thresholds back to stock or whatever you had them set at before.

 

[livedsm4g63]

I want to throw this in here because I can... I like to confuse people..

Some people like to run in open loop all the time.

 

[97gsxIA]

I want to throw this in here because I can... I like to confuse people..

Some people like to run in open loop all the time.

I mean... you definitely can if you want.

 

[Vegas Smith]

I want to throw this in here because I can... I like to confuse people..

Some people like to run in open loop all the time.

I remember Kevin Jewer mentioning that but I forget the reasoning.

 

[kmetiuk]

You can do that to make sure your global injector scaling is correct (hint you can do that on idle as well), but cruise tuning is a closedloop operation. You shouldn't be in openloop ever in cruise to tune it. In fact you should be locking your car in closedloop for entirety of the cruise log by adjusting the openloop thresholds in your Direct Access tabs.

I'm hoping you just got the two confused.

IF your not using the SD adjust tool then you DO want to lock it in open loop to disable fuel trims and then you use WB/AFREst to dial it in. Its much much easier to dial in cruise without the fuel trims enabled.

 

[Vegas Smith]

Ahh, I see. So there must be two ways to manually do it:

1) Closed loop and alter fuel trim via SD VE

2) Open loop and alter WB/AFRest

 

[kmetiuk]

I remember Kevin Jewer mentioning that but I forget the reasoning.

My cruise is so dialed in that if i lock it in open loop my WB is bang on 14.6-14.8. Closed loop isn't fast enough to be able to keep it that close to stoich...i see mine fluctuate from low 14 to mid 15 when in closed loop during cruise. Its totally fine for it fluctuate like that during cruise/closed loop as the cylinder pressures aren't really high enough to cause knock and even if it does the pressures are again so low that it won't do any harm. WOT and in boost is clearly a different matter.

I also found it much easier to dial in the injectors and deadtimes at idle when locking it in open loop and monitoring my AFR's manually. Closed loop just isn't quite fast enough and when dialing in the idle/injectors having to wait for it all to settle and resetting the fuel trims constantly To me it just seemed like a waste of time doing all that in closed loop when I can iterate much faster when not waiting for the comp to do the math and sloooowly bumping the fuel trims.

Either way works just my 2 cents.

 

[kmetiuk]

Ahh, I see. So there must be two ways to manually do it:

1) Closed loop and alter fuel trim via SD VE

2) Open loop and alter WB/AFRest

Ya exactly. Different strokes different folks situ fo sho. For both methods your still adjusting the VE table....your just looking at different data. Fuel trims one way and WB/AFREst the other.

Closed loop works well and I run it without locking it in open when im not tuning....but I just found it easier and faster to tune it in open loop.

Initially you need closed loop for idle to get the fuel settings close...but once im within 10% fuel trim (or rather the engine stays running in open loop lock) i lock it and then just watch my WB/AFREst myself. That's all the ECU is doing in closed loop anyways....its watching the NB (or NB sim) for that switch point and then constantly bumping the fuel trims up and down, up and down, over that switch point.

I've just found that I can do it much quicker if the fuel is steady state (fuel trims disabled in open loop) and then changing the VE table and watching the WB instantly change instead of waiting for the ECU to see the switch point has moved. Saves like 2-5 secs but over how many 10's of cells that can make the difference of an hour or more on an "virgin" VE table.

With "track datalog" on and the "table detached" so it overlays the log; I can dial in the cells super fast and I also get someone else to drive the car around town and then just adjust away. Takes like 10 mins max to hit all the "lower" cells fast. For WOT I still do pulls solo cause its just to crazy to be looking at a lappy....and a pull last like 5-10 seconds max so theres no point in someone else driving.

 

[97gsxIA]

That only makes sense to me if you plan on not running in closed loop ever. Maybe I'm missing something or overthinking. What's the point of having closedloop functionality at all with SD then?

Plus I simulate my narrowband, so now I'm thinking closedloop is completely pointless.

 

[kmetiuk]

That only makes sense to me if you plan on not running in closed loop ever. Maybe I'm missing something or overthinking. What's the point of having closedloop functionality at all with SD then?

I just use lock open loop to dial in the VE and then turn it off once its where I want it.

Both methods end up with the same exact result: A VE table that is calibrated to your setup. How you get there doesn't matter as the end result is the same.

Personally I hate waiting for the fuel trims to catch up to changes and it saved me a lot of time each time I sit down to tune cruise or idle.

Also if you lock in open loop and run like that all the time and you have a coupler pop off or something the engine will not run b/c you disabled its closed loop. Closed loop can get you home if you have an issue. Open loop assumes nothing changes at all so when something does it cripples that mode and you need that feedback loop that closed loop supplies to get you home.

Honestly just try it and see how much more stable the AFR is when cruising or at idle (assuming your VE table is on the money already). Mine is rock solid....damn near bang on 14.7

 

[97gsxIA]

I just use lock open loop to dial in the VE and then turn it off once its where I want it.

Both methods end up with the same exact result: A VE table that is calibrated to your setup. How you get there doesn't matter as the end result is the same.

Personally I hate waiting for the fuel trims to catch up to changes and it saved me a lot of time each time I sit down to tune cruise or idle.

Also if you lock in open loop and run like that all the time and you have a coupler pop off or something the engine will not run b/c you disabled its closed loop. Closed loop can get you home if you have an issue. Open loop assumes nothing changes at all so when something does it cripples that mode and you need that feedback loop that closed loop supplies to get you home.

Honestly just try it and see how much more stable the AFR is when cruising or at idle (assuming your VE table is on the money already). Mine is rock solid....damn near bang on 14.7

Well yeah I'm gonna have to now! At least the next time I switch fuel mixes or something.

My tables are pretty spot on, but it still fluctuates from 14.2 - 15.2, which i always assumed was because of the switch points for the o2 sensor. You can get a rock solid 14.7 cruising? Damn I might just have to go back and redo jsut for sh*ts and giggles.

 

[Vegas Smith]

Good info. Thanks gents.

 

[kmetiuk]

Well yeah I'm gonna have to now! At least the next time I switch fuel mixes or something.

My tables are pretty spot on, but it still fluctuates from 14.2 - 15.2, which i always assumed was because of the switch points for the o2 sensor. You can get a rock solid 14.7 cruising? Damn I might just have to go back and redo jsut for sh*ts and giggles.

Solid 14.7 at idle for sure and at cruise its like 14.6-14.8 which is much closer than the closed loop can do due to the speed of the ECU and waiting for everything to settle.

I mean closed loop is good and I run it as well, but for tuning cursie I always go locked open. Its just faster for me as I'm so used to looking at WB/AFREst during WOT anyways that I just do it for cursing as well now.

I used to use the auto adjust a lot but as I got more and more comfortable with just looking at WB for WOT tuning that it became a burden to have to go log for 10 mins so the tool got a good data set. When I abandoned to tools in favor of speeding up my tuning I found looking at fuel trims was confusing or rather took to much "if I do this the fuel trim does that which means the AFR is this so I need to do this...now lets reset the fuel trims and log for another 10 mins so it can settle". Much easier to do a "WB shows lean, lets add some air to the VE"