Damaged Wiseco Pistons (Not Pretty)

[keltalon]

Since you build and tune your own engines, maybe you could tell us the PTW clearances you honed your block to, ring gaps you set, pin bore clearances, the highest oil and coolant temps your car experienced, which oil you used, how much knock you ran into while tuning, etc. etc., -pretty much anything numeric and relative. None of this information is available in any post in this thread in which the user is claiming a catastrophic failure of a Wiseco piston. I run a ptw clearance of .040. I had my pistons custom made to my own specs by cp. my top ring gap is .019 and my second ring gap is .021. I used nothing but amsoil 10w40 high zinc because of the scar test is higher than most oils on the market and is well suited for the front case tpye oil pumps which can benefit from the protection the zinc content provide. The highest coolant temp I let my car see is around 205. I always tune my car to experience zero knock epecially since in use E85 majority of the time and any knock with it can be devastating. PM me if you like more answers.As far as I can tell the consensus of the thread says that the OPs failure was from improper PTW and getting the piston too hot. This is an opinion based on what none other than someone's experience with the same thing I wonder what pistons they were using.

These are my $.02

 

[keltalon]

yea it was. It was engineered for the evo's

But this is not the evo forum our cars came with if I am not mistaken 190hp and 210hp

 

[Zack Huffman]

These are my $.02

Thanks, that was what I'm looking for. Do you know if you pin fit them by chance? How much power were you making then? Oil pressure? Using 2G oil squirters?

I'm just trying to understand why some can run them to 65-90k miles at 400+ awhp without issue and others can't get to 5k at 300 awhp before a skirt lets go and trashes the bottom end. Other than what Mr. Shearer posted, I'm suspecting builder error mostly, but more specifically want to know where that error actually is being made.

 

[keltalon]

Thanks, that was what I'm looking for. Do you know if you pin fit them by chance? How much power were you making then? Oil pressure? Using 2G oil squirters?

I'm just trying to understand why some can run them to 65-90k miles at 400+ awhp without issue and others can't get to 5k at 300 awhp before a skirt lets go and trashes the bottom end. Other than what Mr. Shearer posted, I'm suspecting builder error mostly, but more specifically want to know where that error actually is being made.

Never used them on my dsm. But when I used them back in my Honda days I never pin fit them. Could have very well been my error for not but back then I didn't pin fit the others either with success. That's from my own personal experience and it puts a very bad taste in my mouth that I can't get out. Therefore when I read any wiseco piston failure I tend to get a little excited and just start ripping. I recently worked with cp on a piston failure I experienced with them. From my opinion thier valve quench cut was too deep.

I wrote them and explained my failure and what I thought would rectify the problem to my surprised they wrote me back and said we would like to hear what you have to say.

I worked with them on my custom set and they have performed superb ever since. Why the skirt failed on the wiseco is besides me and it could very well have been builders error or better yet builder following suggested recommended ptw clearance of wiseco. Maybe there is not enough test done by them on our engines for them to suggest the right ptw clearance? As for those guys on the boards who are making over a 1000whp and not breaking them maybe they need to write wiseco and tell them the correct ptw clearance to recommend.

I don't know but for sure someone needs to get to the bottom of what is actually happening because the forum is made up of 98% guys who are not making over a 1000hp who use machine shops or build their own engine following wiseco ptw recommendation.

As for the 2% that's over a 1000hp and running 7 and 8 sec 1/4 mile times , trust me more than likely most of them are getting their wiseco pistons for free and will not dare post that they broke one. One call and a new set is on its way and the forum never hear about "I broke one" and whatever ptw they were running before will definitely be adjusted so as to avoid the same bad results

 

[ed1380]

But you know its 99% the same engine


Just wondering what ptw are you running?

But this is not the evo forum our cars came with if I am not mistaken 190hp and 210hp

 

[keltalon]

But you know its 99% the same engine

Trust me same name but different engineering look it up if you like. Those engineers were not playing when they designed the new 4g63.
Just wondering what ptw are you running?

.040 cp custom 8:5 to 1 CR Ross duplicated valve quench dept.

 

[Tiki2777]

Even if it is a manufacturing defect, things happen, parts fail, no company is going to be 100% perfect all the time.

I'm sorry, but this statement urks me. People spend LOADS of money on RACING pistons, to be put TO SPEC and to be PERFECT. I'm not saying any company is going to be 100% perfect all the time (which is why wiseco has this policy if their pistons fail), but they had better be pretty damn close. People spend lots of time and money into building engines and manufacturers better be doing their best (at these prices) to keep their product perfect and without issues. Shit had better not just "happen." No offense.

 

[keltalon]

I'm sorry, but this statement urks me. People spend LOADS of money on RACING pistons, to be put TO SPEC and to be PERFECT. I'm not saying any company is going to be 100% perfect all the time (which is why wiseco has this policy if their pistons fail), but they had better be pretty damn close. People spend lots of time and money into building engines and manufacturers better be doing their best (at these prices) to keep their product perfect and without issues. Shit had better not just "happen." No offense.

Man I agree with you I have spent a lot of money and time and will spend more reaching my goal from this pic to where I am now 168whp to 553.7hp still not there yet

 

[kidtsi]

I took my motor apart 3 days, pistons have like 25k if im not mistaken + the amount of miles the person put before me because i bought them new, i also biuld and tune my own car andi havent had a problem with Wiseco. this motpr was running meth injection and E85 around 58lbs/min 587Awhp on a Dyno jet and low 500 on a mustang dyno.
I prefer Ross pistons but never had any problems the way i build my engines, ill post pics when i get a chance.

 

[keltalon]

I took my motor apart 3 days, pistons have like 25k if im not mistaken + the amount of miles the person put before me because i bought them new, i also biuld and tune my own car andi havent had a problem with Wiseco. this motpr was running meth injection and E85 around 58lbs/min 587Awhp on a Dyno jet and low 500 on a mustang dyno.
I prefer Ross pistons but never had any problems the way i build my engines, ill post pics when i get a chance.

Are you happy? Then that's all that matter you happy then we all happy

 

[VTEC_THIS]

Update:

I just got off the phone with Dwayne at Wiseco and I have to say, I am very happy with Wiseco's customer service and how they handled the situation. The RMA process did take about 2-1/2 weeks in total but we're very pleased with the end result. Dwayne was going to replace the pistons but when I explained that we had already ordered Wiseco 1400HD pistons for our build he offered to just send a check instead! I'm not going to post the exact amount of the check but let's just say it covers what we paid for the HD pistons and a little extra (the check is for the retail value of the pistons).

Overall, I would definitely recommend Wiseco. I won't hesitate to use them in the future. They have excellent customer service and they definitely stand behind their products. They didn't hassle me on the phone or ask any questions trying to point the blame to anything else - they just covered it, plain and simple.


FYI for anyone wondering, he said that the stress cracks are usually caused by one of two things:
- Excessive PTW clearance - he said that the recommended PTW clearance is .0035 and sometimes people will go a little overboard with PTW clearances (closer to .0070).
- High boost - High boost can cause stress cracks to develop on pistons under certain circumstances.


I just wanted to relay the following information for anyone who was curious:
- Dwayne at Wiseco recommended 1400HDs for 30PSI and over.
- The minimum PTW clearance is .0035. However, if you're running 25-30PSI he recommended a PTW clearance of .0040. For applications over 30PSI he recommended going with a .0045 PTW clearance.


I'm going to mark this thread as resolved since I feel it has run it's course. I'd also like to thank everyone who contributed or gave their input to this thread.

 

[keltalon]

Update:

I just got off the phone with Dwayne at Wiseco and I have to say, I am very happy with Wiseco's customer service and how they handled the situation. The RMA process did take about 2-1/2 weeks in total but we're very pleased with the end result. Dwayne was going to replace the pistons but when I explained that we had already ordered Wiseco 1400HD pistons for our build he offered to just send a check instead! I'm not going to post the exact amount of the check but let's just say it covers what we paid for the HD pistons and a little extra (the check is for the retail value of the pistons).

Overall, I would definitely recommend Wiseco. I won't hesitate to use them in the future. They have excellent customer service and they definitely stand behind their products. They didn't hassle me on the phone or ask any questions trying to point the blame to anything else - they just covered it, plain and simple.


FYI for anyone wondering, he said that the stress cracks are usually caused by one of two things:
- Excessive PTW clearance - he said that the recommended PTW clearance is .0035 and sometimes people will go a little overboard with PTW clearances (closer to .0070).
- High boost - High boost can cause stress cracks to develop on pistons under certain circumstances.


I just wanted to relay the following information for anyone who was curious:
- Dwayne at Wiseco recommended 1400HDs for 30PSI and over.
- The minimum PTW clearance is .0035. However, if you're running 25-30PSI he recommended a PTW clearance of .0040. For applications over 30PSI he recommended going with a .0045 PTW clearance.


I'm going to mark this thread as resolved since I feel it has run it's course. I'd also like to thank everyone who contributed or gave their input to this thread.

I don' t think anybody on the boards will have any problem supporting your decision. Congrats on your resolution

 

[danielbo91]

This great news because i have the same problem with my wisecos 1400hd pistons.

 

[gabytech]

Thanks for the info.

 

[keltalon]

This great news because i have the same problem with my wisecos 1400hd pistons.

Do you have pics you can post?

 

[danielbo91]

Yes and no but i do have some pics of my destroy parts that were left on the block my piston 3 is completely gone it flew off with rod causing severe damage to my block with junk now.
The other thing is that i notice that the other 3 pistons were fine until i started to notice the stress cracks, and i forgot to take the pictures to show the cracks.im not happy about this lets see if wiseco gives me new pistons. Is already been 1 week that i send them lets see how longer is going to take them to call me.

 

[JacksonAuto]

JAM will never say anything bad about pistons that he sell and for that matter what vendor would ingredients for a lawsuit if they ever think about it.

Our goal is to build engines that last. If we had problems with Wiseco pistons, we would use something different.

 

[JacksonAuto]

I'm sorry, but this statement urks me. People spend LOADS of money on RACING pistons, to be put TO SPEC and to be PERFECT. I'm not saying any company is going to be 100% perfect all the time (which is why wiseco has this policy if their pistons fail), but they had better be pretty damn close. People spend lots of time and money into building engines and manufacturers better be doing their best (at these prices) to keep their product perfect and without issues. Shit had better not just "happen." No offense.

Even if the parts are to spec, how can the manufacturer possibly be liable for damage resulting from the wrong application or installation error? Just because a part fails it doesn't mean that the part was the cause. Would you blame Good Year if you got a nail in your tire or if the installer put the tire on the wheel backwards?

 

[keltalon]

Our goal is to build engines that last. If we had problems with Wiseco pistons, we would use something different.

Hey if you and your customers are happy that's what really matters right? Then use what is working for you that's what I do. So we all are happy then So let me ask you a question do you warranty your performance engines? Most high performance engine builders will not and let you know up front because of the intended use for such build is "abuse". Talking about building an engine to last how long to you think a 500 hp 4 cylinder will last? certainly not 100,000 miles.

The average life of an engiine with that output , beat at the track, road race and periodically on the street do well to last 20,000 miles and you as an engine builder know this. That I build engines to last is crap!! Your expressions should have been "I use parts that I have faith in and that I feel to be of high quality this makes me happy and it makes my customers happy also the vendor because they make a product that I trust" come on jackson you are a professional!

 

[Tiki2777]

Even if the parts are to spec, how can the manufacturer possibly be liable for damage resulting from the wrong application or installation error? Just because a part fails it doesn't mean that the part was the cause. Would you blame Good Year if you got a nail in your tire or if the installer put the tire on the wheel backwards?

I NEVER said that they should be liable for user error. What I am saying is if problems are occuring on the manufacturer's side they have to be responsible for the damage. Things don't just HAPPEN to go bad. If the block was machined correctly and has the right size pistons and PTW cleareance and something goes wrong with the pistons, then it definitely is the manufacturer's fault for not making a good part. I am not hating on the manufacturers, but we spend enough as it is on expensive parts when building a motor. I hate it when people think it is just dumb luck for parts to not be to spec sometimes. Manufacturers need to get it right the first time and not skimp out on double-checking things.

And no, I would not blame Good Year for a nail in a tire, but I woudl be pissed as hell 'cause nothing touches my baby.

As it stands, there may have been some user error here, and it seems that wiseco is being nice about their policy. However, I would most likely be leaning towards different pistons if i decide to build up my motor like JE or something.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Talking about building an engine to last how long to you think a 500 hp 4 cylinder will last? certainly not 100,000 miles.

The average life of an engiine with that output , beat at the track, road race and periodically on the street do well to last 20,000 miles and you as an engine builder know this. That I build engines to last is crap!!

What would limit the engines life to 20k miles? Of course, assuming that it's machined and assembled correctly?

We've got customers with waaaay over 20k miles and over 400-500HP. Two in particular are daily drivers, one has 70k and the other is approaching 80. These are both EVO 8's with Wiseco pistons. One is making 480 and the other 510. One street races and beats the piss out of the car wherever he goes and the other auto crosses his car at least once a month when the weather is nice. I've got two other local customers that took delivery of their engines this time last year and are both approaching 20k miles already as daily drivers. I'm sure there are plenty more but once we build an engine for a customer, we rarely hear back because they dont have any issues. Hell, we've got a guy that has driven his Evo9 to California and back, twice!!

There's no reason that a built engine shouldn't last longer than an OEM engine. Stonger parts, balanced and blueprinted. Light years ahead of the crap that the factory built. Obvisously this is excluding all out race motors with aluminum rods, 30+ psi, etc.

 

[DSMReviver]

What would limit the engines life to 20k miles? Of course, assuming that it's machined and assembled correctly?

We've got customers with waaaay over 20k miles and over 400-500HP. Two in particular are daily drivers, one has 70k and the other is approaching 80. These are both EVO 8's with Wiseco pistons. One is making 480 and the other 510. One street races and beats the piss out of the car wherever he goes and the other auto crosses his car at least once a month when the weather is nice. I've got two other local customers that took delivery of their engines this time last year and are both approaching 20k miles already as daily drivers. I'm sure there are plenty more but once we build an engine for a customer, we rarely hear back because they dont have any issues. Hell, we've got a guy that has driven his Evo9 to California and back, twice!!

There's no reason that a built engine shouldn't last longer than an OEM engine. Stonger parts, balanced and blueprinted. Light years ahead of the crap that the factory built. Obvisously this is excluding all out race motors with aluminum rods, 30+ psi, etc.

JAM keep up the good work I have not heard a problem with you guys.

And OP glad things work out for you

 

[keltalon]

What would limit the engines life to 20k miles? Of course, assuming that it's machined and assembled correctly?

We've got customers with waaaay over 20k miles and over 400-500HP. Two in particular are daily drivers, one has 70k and the other is approaching 80. These are both EVO 8's with Wiseco pistons. One is making 480 and the other 510. One street races and beats the piss out of the car wherever he goes and the other auto crosses his car at least once a month when the weather is nice. I've got two other local customers that took delivery of their engines this time last year and are both approaching 20k miles already as daily drivers. I'm sure there are plenty more but once we build an engine for a customer, we rarely hear back because they dont have any issues. Hell, we've got a guy that has driven his Evo9 to California and back, twice!!

There's no reason that a built engine shouldn't last longer than an OEM engine. Stonger parts, balanced and blueprinted. Light years ahead of the crap that the factory built. Obvisously this is excluding all out race motors with aluminum rods, 30+ psi, etc.

Jackson go on record for the board and answer the question I posed to you first! Do you warranty your high performance engine builds?

 

[keltalon]

JAM keep up the good work I have not heard a problem with you guys.

And OP glad things work out for you

Nobody said jackson did poor work. I know most performance shops don"t warranty there high performance engines despite the parts used to build them because they will be subject to abuse and I want to know since jackson have so much faith with his engines that his shop is different? That's all. Stress, loads, abuse, which increase with increased horse power no matter what parts are used shortens the life spand of an engine. This doubles with a 4 cylinder from a 8 cylinder epecially one that is putting 100+hp/cylinder! I see on his website engine blocks that can handle 800hp that's 200hp/cylinder can you imagine the stress that is exerted on each piston, rod and crank. that's 4 times the stress from stock. can you rightfully warranty such an engine? Just want to know. As a reputable builder I am again shocked that he will say that the monster engines some of us build with the stress and loads that is exerted on them can outlast one from the factory this is plain fantasy. Don't get me wrong I would love for my engine to last forever but I am realistic it won't at my power levels. Top fuel dragsters are rebuilt every run and those guy used the best stuff known to man. Nascar build their engines every race they also used the best parts known to man. Even these guys know high horsepower means more engine wear why don't jackson know this? beats me.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Jackson go on record for the board and answer the question I posed to you first! Do you warranty your high performance engine builds?

Absolutely we do. We guarantee our workmanship and parts that we sell, provided that they are used appropriately.