1G Considering bigger turbo and going back to 93ct

[Kapok6]

Alright, so I am considering going from E85 back to 93oct. There are a few reasons for this. Easier to find. E85 is pretty inconsistent in purity. E85 doesn't register knock the same way gasoline does. Can run a smaller pump. More energy in 93 so faster spool, and better mpg on my long cruises.

I don't discount the advantages of e85. I've used it for 4yrs or so. And I've gone pretty darn fast with it, but the benefits may not outweigh the shortcomings for me at this point.

That being said, to my question(s). My current understanding is that larger framed turbos are less likely to knock than smaller framed turbos. Is this accurate? I.e. I will have less knocking issues if I put my BW 362SX-e on with a twin scroll 1.0 a/r housing/manifold over my current Mitsu framed DSM82 with FP manifold?

And if this is the case, what could I realistically expect power wise? I will not have meth injection or any of that other crap. The turbo is rated at 76lbs/min. I'm not Curt Brown so I have no expectation of making gobs of power on 93, but i'd think i'd be able to flow more air with less boost, on that turbo, which should keep temps down some.

Thoughts?

 

[ceedawg]

I think you answered your question ,usually the only concern is lag or where the turbo is going to make power. I have the older school version of the turbo you mentioned (airwerkes) .91 TS housing.My knock issue that I'm having I believe is due t0 the tune. I have meth and about 17 degrees timing I believe. Turbo does puuls great though until knock. Especially since the climate got warmer. Whole tune is being done over and will be running E85 with a flex fuel setup.

 

[Kapok6]

Curt did the 650 on a 3586 with a .82 T3. He did what a lot of the honda guys do, ran 0deg at peak torque ramping up to 13-14. All on 93. 31 psi I believe. I have a 1.0 divided T4. I am hoping this will help with spool (I know I know, its a 1.0 t4 so expect lag) and help with detonation/timing. I am just wondering where I will be limited to power wise with 93 on a turbo capable of flowing enough power for 750+.

 

[camfast]

Can you explain 0 deg at peak torque and ramping up?

 

[Kapok6]

In the area your motor makes peak torque, (on most dsm's in the 5500 area +/- a few hundred rpms), you are running 0deg of timing, then ramp up from there so by your redline you are running 13-14 deg.

On my high comp motor I ran around 5deg with super rich afr's around peak torque then ramped up to about 13 or so.

 

[camfast]

In the area your motor makes peak torque, (on most dsm's in the 5500 area +/- a few hundred rpms), you are running 0deg of timing, then ramp up from there so by your redline you are running 13-14 deg.

On my high comp motor I ran around 5deg with super rich afr's around peak torque then ramped up to about 13 or so.

Gotcha! I assume this puts less stress on the bearings and the motor itself.

 

[livedsm4g63]

I had the same thought when I had my old dsm. It all depends on how much time you are willing to spend. If you want a daily driver, use something practical. If you want the most out of your setup, then go with something that gives you more power, IE e85, race gas etc.

The main thing I ran into was, as you stated, the inconsistencies of ethanol. I was always messing around with my global at every fill up due to the car needing more or less fuel. (Mind you, I was pushing my car, running on the limit.) To that, it never bothered me as deeply as it has bothered you. Its part of owning a fast car thats modified.

After a few months of running E85 I decided to run dual maps with a switch in the console. (An auto transmission button labeled Power/Eco) This made it so if I had to, I could still run high 400hp and decent boost but it wasnt all out. I believe this was the game changer for me. When you are able to switch back and forth between fuels its astonishing at the amount of differences you will pick up. Either the way the engine runs, etc.

So, in a nutshell, you want a fast car? Do the upkeep. You want a turn key 600-800hp car? Go buy a hellcat or a demon.

(Ive been using e85 since 2008 in my dsms and evos)

 

[Kapok6]

You don't need 600hp in a DSM to beat a hellcat. lulz.

 

[livedsm4g63]

You don't need 600hp in a DSM to beat a hellcat. lulz.

Didnt say you did. Those things weigh about as much as 2 dsms.
Was merely making a statement. You want a turn key "fast" car, go buy a 60-90k vehicle. Dsm's are the furthest from "turn-key" since most of the time they are broken .

If you want to go 93 then go 93, Im confused as to what you are looking for. Approval?
Stack up the pros and cons for your situation and make the decision yourself.

You want our thoughts? Ive gained roughly 70hp/40tq when introducing e85 into any dsm. I see less knock and my engine runs a million times better. To me, its worth every second I log to confirm fuel trims and global settings.

 

[bling5tatus]

The reason I would think larger frame turbos aren't knocking as easily is because they likely aren't being run on the ragged edge of the maps like people do with smaller turbos. Just think of the v8 guys that say they're making 800+hp and only running 8psi. At that low spot in the map the air isn't being heated up nearly as much as the evo3 turbo being pushed at 28psi.

 

[Kapok6]

That's kind of what I'm getting at. I don't know how far could get with a DSM82 on 93, compared to putting this 362sxe on with a divided housing/manifold. I'd imagine a lot further with the BW and iirc, 65-70lbs/min shouldn't be ragging it out too hard. It certainly is on the 82.

Obviously the other option is to just stay with e85. I know respectable DSM builders/tuners that love pump and hate e85, and ones that say e85 is easier to tune and they prefer it to 93.

All things being equal, I guess I'm just trying to determine how much power I would lose on either turbo by going 93 instead of staying on corn.

 

[biglady112]

You would likely have a 12 second car if nothing changed but the fuel. The car can still be fast, just expect to be smiling a whole lot less when you go play. I bet an 8-12 mph is a realistic loss.

 

[livedsm4g63]

You will lose anywhere from 40-70hp and 20-40tq in my opinion. So the question is, can you offset that with a larger turbo. Answer is yes however, spool time will be delayed.

 

[Kapok6]

Gasoline has more energy than e85, which I would venture to guess would
help" with spool time. As to how much, I have no idea.

And 12sec car, i'll pass. Not running this DSM82 or my 362sx-e to run 12's. That may have made up my mind...

 

[livedsm4g63]

The extra energy will not spool to the extent you are thinking off.

Stop listening to dumb people who throw around fake numbers that have no meaning. I've ran 11.49 with a TD05-16G. If you cant do that with a larger turbo, you need some education.

 

[Kapok6]

The extra energy will not spool to the extent you are thinking off.

I'm confused. You said, "The extra energy will not spool to the extent you are thinking off." but did I give an extent I was thinking of? I stated pretty clearly I had no idea to what extent it would help. Be it 10rpm or 1000rpm, I have no idea. If YOU have a # (extent) that you could provide based off experience, I'd be much obliged if you provided it.

 

[19gsx91]

I'm pretty sure you'd be deep into the 11s on pump gas if GST with PSI and Gofer are running or touching 11s with e-85 on td05 68hta setups.

 

[Kapok6]

I'm pretty sure you'd be deep into the 11s on pump gas if GST with PSI and Gofer are running or touching 11s with e-85 on td05 68hta setups.

Mine only did 11.3 on a trash 1.965 60ft but trapped 130.75. This was on E85 and a DSM76 @ 29psi. I finally got down to 1.725 60ft but had shift issues, then next trip I broke an axle, so I never got my 10.xxx At 130+ pass.

Basically I don't want the car any slower than 130. If 93 will do that with a bigger turbo and lower boost, great. If I need to stay e85 to maintain that 130+, so be it. 99% of what I do is roll's in Mexico, and I need a 130+car to continue having any meaningful races.

 

[19gsx91]

I don't see why you couldn't just stay with a larger turbo and higher boost, you might have to run less timing but you could still run 30+psi. I'm running 28psi in a td05 setup trying to sort my knock issues out but that's because I keep playing with base maps. It's been suggested to me to run a gallon of e-85 in with a tank of 93 and that would make my knock disappear but before I do that I wanted to figure out which base map I wanted to use.

 

[livedsm4g63]

I'm confused. You said, "The extra energy will not spool to the extent you are thinking off." but did I give an extent I was thinking of? I stated pretty clearly I had no idea to what extent it would help. Be it 10rpm or 1000rpm, I have no idea. If YOU have a # (extent) that you could provide based off experience, I'd be much obliged if you provided it.

With the amount of advance timing you can run while running e-85 it can offset the difference you are speaking to. Thus the extra energy has little to no effect.

Sorry to hear about the axle!

 

[bastarddsm]

The mass flow through the turbine will be down with gas. Energy content actually has nothing to do with anything. For the same timing advance The E85 will make more power due to its lower energy content, it takes less air to burn it.

Personally I would never give up E85 unless it became way higher than gas price.

Pick up my modded evo3 intake and run a dual fuel setup, put a small 2gal cell in the trunk with E98, then 87 in the tank, when it's in boost the Ecu switches over to it.

 

[livedsm4g63]

The mass flow through the turbine will be down with gas. Energy content actually has nothing to do with anything. For the same timing advance The E85 will make more power due to its lower energy content, it takes less air to burn it.

Personally I would never give up E85 unless it became way higher than gas price.

Pick up my modded evo3 intake and run a dual fuel setup, put a small 2gal cell in the trunk with E98, then 87 in the tank, when it's in boost the Ecu switches over to it.

2 Gallons? That doesnt sound like a lot of pulls

 

[bastarddsm]

f*** I don't know. I'm not going to waste my time hand holding and calculate it.

 

[livedsm4g63]

Never told you to waste your time doing it. Just pointing out that it wouldnt last long in a lot of peoples car. But what works for you, works for ONLY you.

 

[Kapok6]

The mass flow through the turbine will be down with gas. Energy content actually has nothing to do with anything. For the same timing advance The E85 will make more power due to its lower energy content, it takes less air to burn it.

Personally I would never give up E85 unless it became way higher than gas price.

Pick up my modded evo3 intake and run a dual fuel setup, put a small 2gal cell in the trunk with E98, then 87 in the tank, when it's in boost the Ecu switches over to it.

If it takes all that to run gasoline and make power, I'll just stick to e85, single pump, and these 2200cc injectors I have.