1G Failed break-in, bearing wear opinions

[97gsxIA]

Long story short, I had a 6bolt shortblock built by one of the bigger names in the DSM community. Who I will leave off this post for now.

First oil change was clean, second was glitter. Crank had walked. End play was .011. Caught it early.

40 miles total. Pulled the engine, contacted the builder and he immediately started questioning my clutch setup. I walked through with him my setup, clutch adjustment measurements (confirming clutch wasn't preloading the crank) Yada Yada Yada. I even bore scoped a video of the mated engine/trans to prove the input shaft sleeve wasn't riding the clutch disk hub, as he also jumped to that conclusion.

I was expecting to see just the thrust surface worn up, but it was the thrust surface AND that entire half of the center main bearing.

Crank journals are spotless.

Curious of others opinions. I'm of the mind of a botched machinist or him not aligning the thrust bearing on assembly. Not to say my heavy pressure plate wasn't contributing... but to do it in 40 miles when I had the same clutch for 6 years on my last one is hard to believe.

Anyone have any thoughts on this wear pattern?

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[donniekak]

The problem with blaming the clutch is this. It’s totally possible to shred a poorly lubed thrust on first startup with lots of cranking. All my cars start without pushing in the clutch. But, that has nothing to do with the main bearing wear.

Something went wrong with that main, be it a crank journal issue, or a piece of junk coming out the oil hole. It’s the materiel from the damaged main being pushed into the thrust that wore the thrust. The bad thrust is a symptom of another issue.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I haven't inquired, as I don't need to know. Just to show you guys, failures happen, be it an oversight or a casting flaw. Sometimes SHIT HAPPENS. I like to say my builds are all 100% good, never an issue, but look at this. This is a "brand name" Small Block Chevy oil pump that the neck broke off of on my 400. I've built these motors for 45 years and never an issue. I've replaced that pump with a Moroso Tough Neck pump but the motor still has issues now. Not the drivers fault, not my fault, but sometimes it JUST HAPPENS, sorry to say.
Take a look at our recent "delima" for example.....that pump neck is still bolted up at 55 ft/lbs with an ARP stud/nut.
That motor had 5000 miles on it, at the most. Chinese casting from a "brand name" manufacturer.
Marty

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[CrackedDSM]

I haven't inquired, as I don't need to know. Just to show you guys, failures happen, be it an oversight or a casting flaw. Sometimes SHIT HAPPENS. I like to say my builds are all 100% good, never an issue, but look at this. This is a "brand name" Small Block Chevy oil pump that the neck broke off of on my 400. I've built these motors for 45 years and never an issue. I've replaced that pump with a Moroso Tough Neck pump but the motor still has issues now. Not the drivers fault, not my fault, but sometimes it JUST HAPPENS, sorry to say.
Take a look at our recent "delima" for example.....that pump neck is still bolted up at 55 ft/lbs with an ARP stud/nut.
That motor had 5000 miles on it, at the most. Chinese casting from a "brand name" manufacturer.
Marty

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The problem isn’t that a mistake was made. The problem is in how the mistake was addressed.

I rarely ever judge a business by a mistake they’ve made. Shit happens, legitimately know and understand this. I’m judging how you fix this or make it up to me. Even just a “man that’s our fault, sorry” is enough in a lot of cases.

But if you immediately go defensive and refuse to take any kind of responsibility, that’s when it’s a problem. Doesn’t matter if it’s a $5 burger from Burger King or a $5,000 engine from someone.

Big thing I learned being a chef, is almost everyone you meet will completely forgive and forget a mistake if you make it up to them somehow and show some humility/admit you messed up. They’ll then go on to tell everyone how awesome your place is and how great you are.

The opposite is true too.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Yep, if you do your best to make it right, you did it right. If you don't or ditch a customer, that's a Bad Rap, no doubt. I wouldn't want that.

 

[97gsxIA]

The problem with blaming the clutch is this. It’s totally possible to shred a poorly lubed thrust on first startup with lots of cranking. All my cars start without pushing in the clutch. But, that has nothing to do with the main bearing wear.

Something went wrong with that main, be it a crank journal issue, or a piece of junk coming out the oil hole. It’s the materiel from the damaged main being pushed into the thrust that wore the thrust. The bad thrust is a symptom of another issue.

To speak to this- when I first saw the bluing on the thrust surface, I instantly thought oil starvation. I've rarely seen bluing on parts that had at least some lubrication. But I don't have enough experience with THIS specific type of failure, nor am I metallurgist.

BUT THE CATCH- I found no bearing material in the first oil change. Which was essentially just its first heat cycle at varying rpms. Only after driving it. So the clutch was the chicken or the egg here. It pushed against the surface, no doubt and helped do the deed, it just might not have had enough oil to protect itself.

And yeah, my clutch switch is being used for something else and I only ever start the car in neutral. Its common sense for most of us now I think.

 

[bastarddsm]

To speak to this- when I first saw the bluing on the thrust surface, I instantly thought oil starvation. I've rarely seen bluing on parts that had at least some lubrication. But I don't have enough experience with THIS specific type of failure, nor am I metallurgist.

BUT THE CATCH- I found no bearing material in the first oil change. Which was essentially just its first heat cycle at varying rpms. Only after driving it. So the clutch was the chicken or the egg here. It pushed against the surface, no doubt and helped do the deed, it just might not have had enough oil to protect itself.

And yeah, my clutch switch is being used for something else and I only ever start the car in neutral. Its common sense for most of us now I think.

Donnie and I have both run some ignorant clutches over the years and done dumb shit to the hydraulics too. I've not lost one to crankwalk from a heavy pressure plate, and I've not heard from donnie that he has. Unless you have something way nastier than an old ACT3200, a heavy clutch didn't cause it. If you did something like bottomed out the slave with shimmed pivot and a extended slave rod, that could be an issue.

If the builder can't cough up a build sheet, it's because they didn't measure stuff. These engines are not rocket appliances anyone who builds them already knows what clearances to use - so no reason no to share it. Just guessing from what I have seen of eagle cranks that come through here, is it was WAY tight on the mains, and the thrust was way tight. The eagle crank in my all motor car had negative thrust clearance. I had to mod bearing halfs to get it right and it was still on the tight side.

 

[97gsxIA]

Donnie and I have both run some ignorant clutches over the years and done dumb shit to the hydraulics too. I've not lost one to crankwalk from a heavy pressure plate, and I've not heard from donnie that he has. Unless you have something way nastier than an old ACT3200, a heavy clutch didn't cause it. If you did something like bottomed out the slave with shimmed pivot and a extended slave rod, that could be an issue.

If the builder can't cough up a build sheet, it's because they didn't measure stuff. These engines are not rocket appliances anyone who builds them already knows what clearances to use - so no reason no to share it. Just guessing from what I have seen of eagle cranks that come through here, is it was WAY tight on the mains, and the thrust was way tight. The eagle crank in my all motor car had negative thrust clearance. I had to mod bearing halfs to get it right and it was still on the tight side.

The Eagle crank was a last-ditch effort, and was drop shipped new to them after waiting 6 weeks for them to get my block to the machinist. There's a longer story there, but he didn't want to use my oem crank, I disagreed on what he found on it but caved because by then I'm between a rock and hard place. He said it was out of spec. They then actually tried upselling me to a billet crank for 1400 bucks. No where near the same planet as my budget considering the cost of the shortblock.
The new Eagle crank was 800 on top of the 5K for the build.

Interesting that he found out-of-spec measurements on my oem crank but not the Eagle.

Digressing...

The clutch setup was a new ACT 2900 with a solid hub 6 puck. Same one I ran on the previous 6bolt for SEVEN SEASONS. I logged 600ft/lb of torque and that was the strongest single disk setup I could get at the time. It worked, so I kept using it, and decided to keep using it on this one. But like you said, clutch choice wouldn't do this by itself. I know that, and he sure as shit should know that given that he's been in the 8's 7's and 6's and isn't crankwalking his motors every 40 miles.

Everything concerning the clutch system was as it should have been. I checked it all twice before driving. (easy to push the slave in by hand, no shims or bandaids, clutch fork in the middle of the window, hair to the driver side. Checked for clutch drag while it was on jackstands on the first heat cycle, disengagement when pedal was couple inches off the floor)
Nothing noobie going on there.

He either gives me the build sheet and a couple sets of bearings (so that I'm not paying more) today or I start raking mud.

Who am I against this person? No one. I'm a nobody compared to him. 99% of the community including some on this thread would give their left nut to accomplish what this builder has accomplished with his car.

He told me to drive it back to him (10 hour round trip), pay for his labor for anything outside of just replacing the bearing. And that I need to figure out why it crankwalked so it doesn't do it again.

That's not what I would consider meeting me halfway on the issue, especially now after pulling the mains and taking some rudimentary measurements.

Right when I think I'm cooling down, I start talking about it more and I'm right back to being livid

 

[bastarddsm]

You know you need a new crank right?

5 stacks for a shortblock? Yow.

 

[97gsxIA]

You know you need a new crank right?

5 stacks for a shortblock? Yow.

I'll find out what needs done with the crank when I get it actually measured.
Can't know anything without that being done.

 

[bastarddsm]

You need a new crank. There is no such thing as oversized thrust bearings, and it will be oversized if you could even find someone to grind the thrusts. I was told Effingham regrinding can do it, but still stuck on bearing, and you'll probably be halfway into the cost of a new crank getting it ground. I have a crank here that they ground 10 under for a customers engine looks good, but will see how it really is soon.

 

[CrackedDSM]

The Eagle crank was a last-ditch effort, and was drop shipped new to them after waiting 6 weeks for them to get my block to the machinist. There's a longer story there, but he didn't want to use my oem crank, I disagreed on what he found on it but caved because by then I'm between a rock and hard place. He said it was out of spec. They then actually tried upselling me to a billet crank for 1400 bucks. No where near the same planet as my budget considering the cost of the shortblock.
The new Eagle crank was 800 on top of the 5K for the build.

Interesting that he found out-of-spec measurements on my oem crank but not the Eagle.

Digressing...

The clutch setup was a new ACT 2900 with a solid hub 6 puck. Same one I ran on the previous 6bolt for SEVEN SEASONS. I logged 600ft/lb of torque and that was the strongest single disk setup I could get at the time. It worked, so I kept using it, and decided to keep using it on this one. But like you said, clutch choice wouldn't do this by itself. I know that, and he sure as shit should know that given that he's been in the 8's 7's and 6's and isn't crankwalking his motors every 40 miles.

Everything concerning the clutch system was as it should have been. I checked it all twice before driving. (easy to push the slave in by hand, no shims or bandaids, clutch fork in the middle of the window, hair to the driver side. Checked for clutch drag while it was on jackstands on the first heat cycle, disengagement when pedal was couple inches off the floor)
Nothing noobie going on there.

He either gives me the build sheet and a couple sets of bearings (so that I'm not paying more) today or I start raking mud.

Who am I against this person? No one. I'm a nobody compared to him. 99% of the community including some on this thread would give their left nut to accomplish what this builder has accomplished with his car.

He told me to drive it back to him (10 hour round trip), pay for his labor for anything outside of just replacing the bearing. And that I need to figure out why it crankwalked so it doesn't do it again.

That's not what I would consider meeting me halfway on the issue, especially now after pulling the mains and taking some rudimentary measurements.

Right when I think I'm cooling down, I start talking about it more and I'm right back to being livid

Yeah. That's insane.

 

[97gsxIA]

You need a new crank. There is no such thing as oversized thrust bearings, and it will be oversized if you could even find someone to grind the thrusts. I was told Effingham regrinding can do it, but still stuck on bearing, and you'll probably be halfway into the cost of a new crank getting it ground. I have a crank here that they ground 10 under for a customers engine looks good, but will see how it really is soon.

I'll measure the distance between both thrust surfaces with a T gage and an actual mic. And then mic a brand new bearing to confirm its clearance. I trust my dial caliper about as much I trust this builder now.

I'm not ever going to grind a crank's thrust surface. Its already a paperweight if it needs ground.

 

[victorgalant]

My .02

My thrust surface was trashed on my 1g 7 bolt crank. Couldn't really find a good used one so someone told me that the Daido Metal bearings were a little wider on the thrust.
my machine shop grounded the thrust and looks brand new. I have to assemble everything and see, but looks fine.

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This was the Taiho bearing

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This was the Daido bearing. So that 0.4mm can make a difference

 

[97gsxIA]

I want to be fully transparent with how this is developing so I can update this thread as I get things fixed.
I got a call from the builder, today.

He is offering to foot the bill to tear it down and put it back together, based on what he finds. He wants to see it for himself.
He offered to throw in a new headgasket (I used a Vulcan cut ring gasket) and to charge me at-cost for the head surface I need.
Stood his ground on not handing out the spec sheet, but agreed .001 is no bueno.

In all honesty that's probably all he can really offer at this point. But I've lost the faith I had in him, there's a 10 hour round trip I'd need to make twice, and potentially ending up with no spec sheet again.

So I'm going to pull the crank and take some measurements for myself before I make a decision on letting him take another stab at it.
Most likely- if I need a new crank, I'm not going to pursue his offer.

I appreciate him changing his stance, but now I'm unsure I have the faith in having him make a 2nd attempt. I'll come back and update as this plays out.

 

[curt-s]

Go with your gut. Then you won't have reservations every time you turn the key.
It might cost you more in the end but peace of mind is worth a lot.
I'm in the same boat as you, but to a slightly lesser extent. I took a 50% hit on replacing what used to be a brand new set of rods because I no longer trust the shop to resize the big ends DOWN.. basically grinding the cap and rehoning.
It will cost me the other 300-400 to do over with a new sey but that was as much as they would go because they're adamant they can be fixed but I just made the decision to take it and leave the stress there along with the ruined set.

 

[DreamChaser7]

I want to be fully transparent with how this is developing so I can update this thread as I get things fixed.
I got a call from the builder, today.

He is offering to foot the bill to tear it down and put it back together, based on what he finds. He wants to see it for himself.
He offered to throw in a new headgasket (I used a Vulcan cut ring gasket) and to charge me at-cost for the head surface I need.
Stood his ground on not handing out the spec sheet, but agreed .001 is no bueno.

In all honesty that's probably all he can really offer at this point. But I've lost the faith I had in him, there's a 10 hour round trip I'd need to make twice, and potentially ending up with no spec sheet again.

So I'm going to pull the crank and take some measurements for myself before I make a decision on letting him take another stab at it.
Most likely- if I need a new crank, I'm not going to pursue his offer.

I appreciate him changing his stance, but now I'm unsure I have the faith in having him make a 2nd attempt. I'll come back and update as this plays out.

I don’t understand paying good money for a short block and not receiving a spec sheet. I’ll be damned

 

[Drewpy Dawg]

A builder being so adamant about not providing a spec sheet screams “he didn’t bother measuring or recording anything” (at least to me.) I’ve built exactly one 4G63 and measured and recorded just about everything. If I can do that why didn’t the professional?

 

[donniekak]

You know you need a new crank right?

5 stacks for a shortblock? Yow.

Yeah, I need to get back in the game if these are todays prices.

We went from 10’s to 7’s in 2 years with zero catastrophic failures.



I’m with you on the clutch. I ran a 2900 for years on a jacked up hydraulic system for max throw, zero issues. It’s startup that causes the biggest problem and he has his clutch switch bypassed.

The thrusts are small, a couple flakes of main bearing through them and they’re toast.

The only way I’ve seen to run oversized thrusts is with 97+ blocks. You can use shim stock under the thrust.

Fwiw we used stock 6-bolt cranks in everything. Enough power for a 3000gt to trap 180.

I want to be fully transparent with how this is developing so I can update this thread as I get things fixed.
I got a call from the builder, today.

He is offering to foot the bill to tear it down and put it back together, based on what he finds. He wants to see it for himself.
He offered to throw in a new headgasket (I used a Vulcan cut ring gasket) and to charge me at-cost for the head surface I need.
Stood his ground on not handing out the spec sheet, but agreed .001 is no bueno.

In all honesty that's probably all he can really offer at this point. But I've lost the faith I had in him, there's a 10 hour round trip I'd need to make twice, and potentially ending up with no spec sheet again.

So I'm going to pull the crank and take some measurements for myself before I make a decision on letting him take another stab at it.
Most likely- if I need a new crank, I'm not going to pursue his offer.

I appreciate him changing his stance, but now I'm unsure I have the faith in having him make a 2nd attempt. I'll come back and update as this plays out.

If it’s a legit shop with lots of builds under their belt, and not just a fast shop car, I’d give them a chance to make it right.

But I’m not you, and I dont have your experience with this exact situation, and the vibe you get.

 

[TJCTalon]

Just curious if there was any updates on this?

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

I’m interested to hear more myself. I was a few weeks out of the loop from not getting on here and wanted to look back at this.

 

[jed344]

I am interested to. I am no expert but i have built a few dozen 4g's and always provide a spec sheet. Many other builders do as well. The heavy clutch theory or even not adjusted correctly i doubt with the use on the engine. Eagle cranks are not bad per say but they cannot be just tossed in out of the box as others here as well have said. They always are out of balance and usually oversized so clearances are to tight, But a builder who is measuring will catch and see that and deal with it. To tight of thrust is also checked and dealt with if its the case. I will correct earlier my memory was wrong i said .003-.007 and it is .002-.007. I have seen once to tight on a 6 bolt before but that was stock crank and king bearings as i recall. I have never seen to loose on a split thrust but again others have built more then me. I have rebuilt or refreshed engine's years later that where done by well known shops and the owners still had and provided the sheet for the clearances when built. That i still feel strange about, if it was really fully measured on assembly a sheet would be able to be provided at the least for myself and customer it backs up what things where.

 

[97gsxIA]

UPDATE:

I weighed my options and ultimately decided to take it back to him and let him look at it. With the caviat that I planned on tearing it all down myself when I got it back to double check all of his work.

He told me he disassembled and reassembled, had the crank sent to his machinist and had it magnafluxed and cleaned.
Didn't say boo on anything else other than it all checked out and his machinist recommended that the crank had preload on it and the thrust failed from that. The rest was communicated through one of his employees and he wasn't at the shop when I picked it up.
Told me his "target" for the mains was .002 and rods was .003.

I got the block back this last weekend and have since tore it down and took my own measurements.

The relevant #'s from that excursion were as follows:

No taper on any of the main journals. Flat as a sheet of ice.

Main clearances 1-5 starting from rear
.0023 .0022 .0022 .0023 .0022

Endplay measured 3 times. Once before i tore it down then twice on re-assembly, before and after setting the thrust bearing. Numbers came out the same each time.
.002 -.0025

I like to think I'm meticulous (paranoid really) so I picked up a new southbend clutch from TZ. And I'm replacing every clutch component in my car. I will be bore scoping the clutch during adjustment and probably bleeding and adjusting until I turn into a clutch pedal, myself.

I'm staying weary. Magically all the mains are .002+ now. Imagine that. The endplay is a bit tight. But it is what it is.

I plan on getting the car back together by the end of this weekend. So I'll update back after the 2nd oil change.

It's been a long month.
Wife lost her job (luckily found another), a death in the family, my 70's honda CB750 I just built over winter got ran over by a moron a week after this b.s. happened. And a ton of other shit.

When it rains it pours.
I'm willing through it.

 

[97gsxIA]

Not sure if this was clear or not. But the Mains had mix and matched +.001" (HX) bearings this time around. Another real chin scratcher there. Whole thing "checked out" and "thrust died from preloaded clutch" but the bearings magically changed to a different size.

Didn't realize I had David Copperfield assemble my engine.

 

[danl]

I think you have your answer, care was not taken during assembly the last time around. You called his bluff with the facts of the matter. We all make mistakes. What makes us adults is how we handle to the mistakes we have made. Some people are clearly not responsible adults, sadly.

 

[We're on Boost]

Not sure if this was clear or not. But the Mains had mix and matched +.001" (HX) bearings this time around.

Thanks for that info.

Déjà vu:

So your ACL main bearings are H-STD.
You can also get HX-STD. The X means you get an extra .001" of clearance.
That's what I would do. Then your mains should have a clearance of about .002 inches.