2G Advice on a Engine Rebuild & Transmission Rebuild 2023

[FredRider]

First, I'd like to say that I have really learned a lot about cars through this amazing community of DSMers! My first car was an Eagle Talon Tsi 97 FWD Automatic. I've had the car since 2018 I bought it for just $500.00 it has a 4g63 engine.

Lets start off with the BAD. I've been looking over the forums and I can't seem to find anything like this so I decided to start my own thread.

Recently, these past couple of months my engine decided to blow a head gasket and now everytime I try to turn it on it sounds like a piston or something is hitting like a clanking metal noise... then my engine just shuts off. Now for the transmission it was slipping and I had to put the O/D mode on or off depending on how you look at it.. (I made an older post about it in the past) for me to be able to drive normally till the engine decided to quit on me...

Now I do know that there's an issue that comes with these engines called "CrankWalk" So here comes my next question is it better to rebuild the engine or swap it out for something else? I know that it can be a daunting task for most but I owe it to that car for always pulling me out of hard times when I needed it the most. So I hate for it to be just sitting there in my driveway just being forgotten. As for the transmission I was already planning on converting it to a manual due to the fact that a lot of people would tell me that they were easier to work on and thats really when these type of vehicles shined the most!

With all this being said all I am really asking is for the generational amount of knowledge from this amazing community to help or give me some tips on how I could get the gears moving again and slowly restore the vehicle. I've seen it happen plenty of times with older cars so I believe that I could also do it myself especially with how much information we now have nowadays. I want to do all this myself if I I possibly can because that's what makes us tuners in my opinion. It's ok to make mistakes and learn from them. I also have came to terms that this project might take me 3 - 5 years to even get it back and running but I don't mind it as long as I do everything right and have patience.

I know that there is some people here in the community that will just critique instead of help but thats ok I'm just a 21 year old trynna restore his first car again. I have another vehicle so I would love to have this as my weekend driver and my goal for it is to make it to where its a fast reliable weekend warrior and obviously allowing me to be able to add more perfomrance mods if I ever wanted to.

***DISCLAIMER: I am no Professional Mechanic but I do have friends that have worked on Hondas and know their way around rebuilding engines and they are more than willing to give me a helping hand withe advice or tips you all may give me!***

***I WILL BE UPDATING THIS THREAD OVER THE YEARS OR PROGRESS THAT I MAKE INCASE SOMEONE EVER COMES ALONG AND IS IN THIS PREDICAMENT. I WILL ALSO BE DELETING MESSAGES THAT DONT HELP SO I CAN KEEP IT AS ORGANIZED AS POSSIBLE AND IT DOESN'T JUST TURN INTO A RABBIT HOLE***

- FredRider

 

[DogWhistle]

If this is your first build, there will be enough learning and enough challenges with rebuilding the current engine. Adding a transmission swap on top of that will likely make you regret the decision and decrease the fun of the project. Besides, it sounds like your trans just needs end clutches to be fully functional again.

Crankwalk is accelerated by heavy clutch pressure. Adding hp requires a stronger clutch to hold the power. Stay auto and save yourself some grief.

Countless members here will tell you that the attention to detail when rebuilding the 4g engines is vital to their survival when back in the car. It’s cool that your friends are willing to help, but you’ll also need the services of a legitimate machine shop to go through and shape up your block, crank and head, and even then you’ll have to spend a lot of time cleaning the oil passages and getting the bearing and ring clearances just right.

Can you do it? Yes. It’s commendable that you realize it will take a length of time. Research, then make decisions. Be extra careful about the reassembly and you’ll love the result.

 

[97egl]

If you blew a headgasket and now it is making a clanking sound you more than likely have a spun bearing. Coolant could have gotten in the oil and ruined the bearings or if coolant got in the cylinder it could have bent the rod and ruined the bearing. You will probably have to find a new crank. That said you may just look for a new short block especially if you are worried about crank walk you could try to find a 6 bolt or a revised 2g block with the split thrust washer. Here is an article all about crankwalk that magnus motorsports put a bunch of time into that will help you understand the possible causes. https://www.magnusmotorsports.com/crankwalk-theory/

I would not convert it to a manual yet. Start by building the engine and then decide later on. A lot of guys end up going automatic at certain power levels. Its cheaper to build an automatic to hold power than a manual. Once you get over 350 horsepower the manual transmission is on borrowed time and parts are hard to find. Also as already stated the clutch also contributes to crankwalk so if you are worried about that staying auto should help.

Good luck with the re-build. I would watch some youtube videos on rebuilding the 4g63 and then decide how much you can do yourself and how much you want a machine shop to do for you. There will be some things you just can't do yourself like resurfacing the head, boring the block, grinding the crank, ect.

 

[FredRider]

Ok, sounds good thanks @DogWhistle and @97egl I will keep my transmission auto in the mean time and focus on my engine.

Now I do know that I will have to go get the head resurfaced and rebored everything that needs machining. My next question would be what you said @97egl should I just look for another block or try to rebuild the block I already have? I looked into the link you provided with MagnusMotorsports and I will also reach out to them to see if they can guide me as well.


I will start to make a list of all the parts I need eventually and post them here. Do you all know of any reputable part stores where I could start looking for parts I need?

Thanks!

 

[DogWhistle]

I will start to make a list of all the parts I need eventually and post them here. Do you all know of any reputable part stores where I could start looking for parts I need?

A good start would be to look at the offerings of the Supporting Vendors on this forum. Scroll to the bottom of the Home Page and you'll see the links to their websites.

Sounds like you have a good plan going forward. A basket of 'go fast' parts doesn't ensure that they will play nice together, so feel free to ask about your equipment choices before you buy. From personal experience, using lots of "high performance" parts will lower your reliability. Remember, your car is only fun when it's running.

 

[dwb]

Glad to hear you want to save it! I'd recommend spending some time and watch a bunch of YouTube videos by Jafromobile. He goes into great detail on so many aspects of these cars but his engine rebuild videos were extremely helpful for me. Also, track down the Factory Service Manual if you haven't already (https://www.dsmtuners.com/forum/articles-manuals-documents.262/).

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions and seek advice here. Many of us have been in your shoes and most are more than willing to help.

 

[97egl]

Ok, sounds good thanks @DogWhistle and @97egl I will keep my transmission auto in the mean time and focus on my engine.

Now I do know that I will have to go get the head resurfaced and rebored everything that needs machining. My next question would be what you said @97egl should I just look for another block or try to rebuild the block I already have? I looked into the link you provided with MagnusMotorsports and I will also reach out to them to see if they can guide me as well.


I will start to make a list of all the parts I need eventually and post them here. Do you all know of any reputable part stores where I could start looking for parts I need?

Thanks!

Before making a parts list you'll need to buy some machinists tools if you want to rebuild engines. Bore Gauge, Micrometers, Feeler Gauges.

You are going to need to tear the engine down to verify what it will need to get running again. Then at that point I would decide what route to take. You can find 7 bolt crankshafts for $150-250 so if the cylinders measure out good it may be cheaper to just buy a crankshaft and new rod. Then re-ring the pistons and put new main/rod bearings in it.

My person suggestion would be to re-build the engine you have. Since you don't have a lot of experience this would be the best way to learn and if you mess something up you'll have less money into it then if you bought another engine. As long as you delete the oil squirters I don't think you need to worry about crankwalk. (Others may have different opinions)

 

[JohntyBee]

Glad to hear you want to save it! I'd recommend spending some time and watch a bunch of YouTube videos by Jafromobile. He goes into great detail on so many aspects of these cars but his engine rebuild videos were extremely helpful for me. Also, track down the Factory Service Manual if you haven't already (https://www.dsmtuners.com/forum/articles-manuals-documents.262/).

Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions and seek advice here. Many of us have been in your shoes and most are more than willing to help.

+1 for Jafro. I’ve been watching his videos for many years! Regardless of it being his older videos or his present day videos its always great information. It’s detailed, well organized, and enjoyable to watch the process he goes through for everything

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

7 bolt motors have the oil "squirters" built into the block, they are not removable like the oiling jets of a 6 bolt motor. Now they "may" be removeable but I recommend leaving them for cooling purposes as they were intended, especially since this is this young mans first overhaul.
I still use them in my 500-700hp motors. On 6 bolts, you just have to make sure they have enough clearance (along with expansion) to never get touched by the piston skirt.
Just my .02¢
Marty

 

[FredRider]

Before making a parts list you'll need to buy some machinists tools if you want to rebuild engines. Bore Gauge, Micrometers, Feeler Gauges.

You are going to need to tear the engine down to verify what it will need to get running again. Then at that point I would decide what route to take. You can find 7 bolt crankshafts for $150-250 so if the cylinders measure out good it may be cheaper to just buy a crankshaft and new rod. Then re-ring the pistons and put new main/rod bearings in it.

My person suggestion would be to re-build the engine you have. Since you don't have a lot of experience this would be the best way to learn and if you mess something up you'll have less money into it then if you bought another engine. As long as you delete the oil squirters I don't think you need to worry about crankwalk. (Others may have different opinions)

Is there any particular brand I should get for the tools I will need? or will any do just as long as they do the job.

 

[FredRider]

Thanks to everyone that is putting in their 2 cents! I am feeling even better that I may have a shot of restoring my car! I already have a engine stand thanks to a friend that gave me his. I just need to remove the engine from the car and show you guys pictures with progress in case I get stuck with anything.

 

[97egl]

Is there any particular brand I should get for the tools I will need? or will any do just as long as they do the job.

I prefer Starrett but you can get away with cheaper brands. If you buy a cheap set you'll want to make measurements several times to make sure the tool is giving repeatable measurements.

 

[We're on Boost]

Is there any particular brand I should get for the tools I will need? or will any do just as long as they do the job.

Mitutoyo and Starrett have been the best precision measuring tools for a long time. Things like micrometers, calipers, dial gauges.

For the simpler types of precision tools, like feeler gauges, you don't need to be so picky about the brand.
I like the SPI thread pitch gage that I bought last year. It says "Made in Japan" and it is good. Some SPI tools are made in India or other places.

Some of the cheaper brand precision stuff that I bought in the 80's is not very good. But I still have all those things and even use them sometimes.

For ordinary hand tools, there are so many brands. You don't always need high-end stuff.
My torque wrenches are all either Husky (cheap) or CDI (expensive). I'm getting along fine with all of them.
For multimeters I have an INNOVA 3320 (cheap) and a Fluke 87 (expensive). I'm getting along fine with both.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

My tools are cheap but I calibrate them each and every time I use them. You don't have to have brand name stuff but make sure what you do get is a correct measuring device and check it all the time. If your green on how to use any of them just ask. I think you are going about this in a very good manner.
If you are taking the time to measure anything, write it down on the printable blueprint sheets I use. Always a good "tool".
Marty

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[FredRider]

My tools are cheap but I calibrate them each and every time I use them. You don't have to have brand name stuff but make sure what you do get is a correct measuring device and check it all the time. If your green on how to use any of them just ask. I think you are going about this in a very good manner.
If you are taking the time to measure anything, write it down on the printable blueprint sheets I use. Always a good "tool".
Marty

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Thank you for theses copies! They will definitely help out with the car! I was actually already looking into how I could do something like this in google sheets! but you just saved me a ton of time!

 

[FredRider]

UPDATE: September 15, 2023

So I have been doing my research and buying the necessary equipment to start on this daunting task. But before I start it I was wondering whether I need to completely remove the engine or can I dissemble it while it staying in the engine bay? What are y’all’s opinions?

I’ve also had the idea to record the whole process with a GoPro for my sake in case I forget how to reassemble it and I’ve also noticed from people that bolts tend to get either lost or you have extra so I went to Harbor Freight and bought me a bolt organizer and I’ll be labeling each compartment with the necessary name.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I would pull the motor/trans as a unit and when the engine is done, reinstall as a unit. It is easier to work on. You can take the exhaust and intake manifolds off in the car to give you more room when removing the motor. Double check ALL wires, hoses, connectors are unhooked before you yank it out. If in doubt, just ask.

 

[FredRider]

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UPDATE: 1/18/2024
I finally started working on dissembling the stuff in the way of the engine. I am recording everything and that's probably why it's going to take me much longer but that's ok. I am also marking all the bolts in a storage organizer so nothing gets lost!

Next on the list is to disconnect all the wiring. I drained all fluids as well.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

When you get the engine on a stand and torn down down to the crank, lmk. I'll show you what normally causes crankwalk and how to fix it. It isn't the oil squirters. I've seen thrust bearing wear that was out of tolerance on both autos and manuals, a heavy clutch isn't the root cause of the issue it just makes it worse.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

I would also suggest staying auto.

 

[FredRider]

I would also suggest staying auto.

Sounds good! I will also let you know when I get the engine on a stand. I had a bad cold this whole week and it looks like I'm finally getting over it.

 

[FredRider]

UPDATE APRIL 8TH, 2024:

So after a whole year of planning and making sure I took my time with the removal of the engine I was able to finally do it today! I took it out with the transmission as well and after this picture was taken. I wrapped it up with Ceraramp paper and then covered it with a canvas drop cloth and a tarp for extra protection maybe I overdid it hahaha.

When I was removing it more of the mystery forbidden Milkshake pioured out of it. Not too much but still some and my friend who was willing to help me with letting me use his engine hoist confirmed that it was just a blown head gasket. But he did agree with me bout making the choice of wanting to completely rebuild the engine and transmission. He just warned me about the timing.

So with that being said I am super excited with whats to come now... What should I do next? Also where can I get an engine stand that could be used for this engine? I have one but it doesn't fit it.

Should I remove the transmission first?

I also want to clean my engine bay and my friend told me about using rubberized undercoating on it to keep it from rusting after I cleaned the engine bay? What do you all think?

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[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Don't worry too much about crankwalk, you had an automatic car. Most, if not all, crankwalk motors are from stick shift cars and a lot use a HEAVY clutch and don't get rid of the clutch pedal switch to start the car. You don't have that.
Have the block decked and head surfaced. It will seal then. Replace all bearings, rings, gaskets, freeze plugs, water pump, belts and hoses. Need help, just ask.
Your automatic trans, does it not have overdrive? That would be a wore out end clutch, which you can fix yourself, if that is the problem.
Good job. These things take time and you've done well!

 

[FredRider]

Don't worry too much about crankwalk, you had an automatic car. Most, if not all, crankwalk motors are from stick shift cars and a lot use a HEAVY clutch and don't get rid of the clutch pedal switch to start the car. You don't have that.
Have the block decked and head surfaced. It will seal then. Replace all bearings, rings, gaskets, freeze plugs, water pump, belts and hoses. Need help, just ask.
Your automatic trans, does it not have overdrive? That would be a wore out end clutch, which you can fix yourself, if that is the problem.
Good job. These things take time and you've done well!

Yes it does have O/D that's how i drove it whille my gears were slipping

 

[dwb]

where can I get an engine stand that could be used for this engine? I have one but it doesn't fit it.

Should I remove the transmission first?

Most stands should be universal. I used a harbor freight stand like this:

1000 lb. Capacity Engine Stand

Amazing deals on this 1000Lb Engine Stand at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

You have to remove the transmission, use longer bolts and mount the stand to where the trans was bolted.