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2G No injector pulse good ECU & CAS

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Key on - ECU Unplugged
The only way you can measure 12v at injector pins 1, 2, 14, and 15 in the ECU harness is if you have a complete circuit from the battery - through the MPI relay, through the resistor pack, through the injector coil and all the connected wiring harnesses up to the ECU. If you ground each pin (1,2,14,15) one at a time, you should hear the injector open and close. If you don't - then the issue is upstream from the ECU.

Since you are getting 12v at the ECU - and the ECU detection logic is failing, this tends to point to the ECU as the problem.

Did you have the ECU inspected and fixed by ECM Tuning? The capacitors on the boards leak and mess up traces on the board.
I agree with the ecu bit, but I just got my ecu back from ecmtuning. I spoke with Dave Mertz who I told also about the injector plugs reading 12v unplugged and he replied with


“The best way to test for pulses would be to use an oscilloscope with the injectors connected normally.

With the injectors unplugged, you'll still see 12v on ECU pins 1, 2, 14 and 15 when using a high-impedance meter because the ECU has an internal resistor of somewhat high value pulling up to 12v as part of the injector-circuit malfunction detection circuit.

Dave Mertz
ECMTuning, Inc..”


Right now I’ve tracked down that I am indeed receiving injector pulse at all 4 pins of the ecu. I’m not exactly sure why the ground signal is not traveling upstream as you said.. I’ll try back probing with the injector plugged in to see if I still get a reading which I don’t see why I wouldn’t. 4-5” away from the ecu im still receiving pulse too. It’s a strange situation for sure.
 
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I agree with the ecu bit, but I just got my ecu back from ecmtuning. I spoke with Dave Mertz who I told also about the injector plugs reading 12v unplugged and he replied with


“The best way to test for pulses would be to use an oscilloscope with the injectors connected normally.

With the injectors unplugged, you'll still see 12v on ECU pins 1, 2, 14 and 15 when using a high-impedance meter because the ECU has an internal resistor of somewhat high value pulling up to 12v as part of the injector-circuit malfunction detection circuit.

Dave Mertz
ECMTuning, Inc..”


Right now I’ve tracked down that I am indeed receiving injector pulse at all 4 pins of the ecu. I’m not exactly sure why the ground signal is not traveling upstream as you said.. I’ll try back probing with the injector plugged in to see if I still get a reading which I don’t see why I wouldn’t. 4-5” away im still receiving pulse too. It’s a strange situation for sure.
With the ECU UNPLUGGED (not connected), did you try:
1. measure the voltage at ECU harness female pins 1,2,14 and 15?

2. If you get 12v, then try and ground female pins in the harness, 1,2,14,and 15 one at a time (you pretending to be the ECU) do you hear the injector click?
 
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With the ECU UNPLUGGED (not connected), did you try:
1. measure the voltage at ECU harness female pins 1,2,14 and 15?

2. If you get 12v, then try and ground female pins in the harness, 1,2,14,and 15 one at a time (you pretending to be the ECU) do you hear the injector click?
Justin ecu unplugged key on no voltage at any female terminals. But I didn’t hear a relay click at all to send the mpi/mfi relay send a signal. Am I unplugging the whole ecu?.. or just this injector connector harness side.

Fully unplugged I don’t hear the relay click on like when the ecu is plugged in I’ll check again for the sound of the relay with ecu plugged in.

Okay with pin 6 jumped to ground-
power transferred from 4 to 2 and 3 on the mpi relay.


With all 4 injectors plugged in,
At the 4 injector female terminals on the ecu plug I read 12v -_-

With an injector unplugged I’m reading mV but nothing on the same unplugged.
 
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Ok so this sounds bad. For me for the ECU IDK who.

Revisiting this test
After jumping pin 6 on the MFI/MPI relay power transferred from pin 4 to pins 2 & 3.

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After this I hooked up my noid light to injector 1.

KEY ON!!!

NO ECU PLUGGED in
Ground jumper alligator to a paper clip (Mcguyver) I tapped on the injector 1 pin which is pin 1 on a 2g.

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The noid light lit obviously. 🙄 Cause we love doing tests for everybody else. This actually makes me happy I got here Justin without your help I wouldn’t have been able to understand no ECU variable.

Steve thank you for helping me with that diagram it’s actually what made this possible because I would have been to scared to jump pin 6.

So now.. does that mean my ECU is still on the fritZ!??

My harness clearly works. How well? IDK because apparently I’m still getting a pulse. So what gives? Is the repair faulty or can my wire be so corroded and old that the ECU pulse is just too short for the wire? I opened up the ECU and am not sure if I saw corrosion on the capacitor or if that’s just the ECU green board.

Not sure what direction to take -_-

Justin I just tried your injector trick instead of the noid light it actually opened the injector -_-

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This was the test you needed to answer and build confidence in everything up to the ecu.
good work.

Triggering the mpi manually is what you do - good on you for that.

So there are possible variables here - if you have High Z injectors that might make the resistance too high for the pullup in the ecu.

You could reach out to ECM tuning with the results of your tests - you might have to ship it back to check again if its not the High Z injector resistance issue
 
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This was the test you needed to answer and build confidence in everything up to the ecu.
good work.

Triggering the mpi manually is what you do - good on you for that.

So there are possible variables here - if you have High Z injectors that might make the resistance too high for the pullup in the ecu.

You could reach out to ECM tuning with the results of your tests - you might have to ship it back to check again if its not the High Z injector resistance issue

Well the thing is, you check resistance between coils and that lets you know if it’s high Z? Even if it was high Z or low, wouldn’t the noid still work? The noid isn’t even working at the harness. From what I’m hearing is noids dont work. Is that just the Autozone noids? I imagine my noid is an incandescent and maybe that’s messing things up? I got a small hint of a light at the ECU.

I am starting to see HOW it can possibly be the ECU, but I checked with another one. What are the odds I struck out twice with another dud? I’ll retest tomorrow with the ECU in and check to see if I get injector pulse at the injector harness. I have a pretty confident feeling I won’t but. Who knows maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised and perplexed that the issue has resolved itself with my moving around my harness.

I’d probably scream. Let me go get my p’s and q’s in a row. Tomorrow is another day. Thank you Justin!!! 🙏

I like this test, definitely let me know my wires are good enough but. What about the second ECU?

The variable here is that I was about to start diving into my harness so I unplugged everything and laid it all out in case I need to start piercing certain areas. I really do think a harness redo would do wonders on these cars, but the ECU thing, what are the odds?

I talked to Dave about the injector pulses he said they were most accurate with an oscilloscope. I just don’t have an amp clamp. If I can jumper into the injectors and check out a pulse with the multi meter scope I’d be so happy. I remember with the amp clamp you need a few more attachments that I don’t have nor really care about sourcing right now.

Bout to do some digging into setting up injectors on a scope. I love this nerdy type stuff. Makes me feel like Mcguyver, actually diagnosing and having tests to prove a part is bad rather than me having changed all these things over and over and never coming to any real conclusion.
 
The SD table looks like a stock one, I see you have SD selected and the ecu side pin assignments made but not in the data logging side so I can't see the values the sensors are reading. The DA side of things I see the target air fuel tables have been modified but those are not causing your issue. I see the long term fuel trim selection has been to but again not causing your issue. Timing table modified max octane but not the issue. 25 deg coolant offset is excessive for sure for when to kick the fan but not the issue.

I would update the firmware as your link appears to be out of date for whats showing up but I do not see anything in the tune that would be enough for the issue you are seeing. -55.5 is quite a lot if you still are on the 1000cc even on corn, but again it still should fire but run bad. Noid lights will work on a DSM. I used my Snap-On set last year figuring out a issue. Though our issue ended up not being the same as yours a 9v can and will open and close the injector. The noid lights do not light up very bright on a DSM from my experience but they do light up when cranking. I have only ever used the noid lights on cars with high z and no resistor pack still used.

You have already tested the other things I would check as I recall how it works is ECU dumps the ground to fire injector and MPI supply's the other side of circuit. Essentially when everything is working as I recall key on both wires at injectors plugging in read normal voltage then the ECU side grounds to open it i think.

I am interested to see what you figure out as anything I can think to offer you have tried or diagnosed already.
 
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The SD table looks like a stock one, I see you have SD selected and the ecu side pin assignments made but not in the data logging side so I can't see the values the sensors are reading. The DA side of things I see the target air fuel tables have been modified but those are not causing your issue. I see the long term fuel trim selection has been to but again not causing your issue. Timing table modified max octane but not the issue. 25 deg coolant offset is excessive for sure for when to kick the fan but not the issue.

I would update the firmware as your link appears to be out of date for whats showing up but I do not see anything in the tune that would be enough for the issue you are seeing. -55.5 is quite a lot if you still are on the 1000cc even on corn, but again it still should fire but run bad. Noid lights will work on a DSM. I used my Snap-On set last year figuring out a issue. Though our issue ended up not being the same as yours a 9v can and will open and close the injector. The noid lights do not light up very bright on a DSM from my experience but they do light up when cranking. I have only ever used the noid lights on cars with high z and no resistor pack still used.

You have already tested the other things I would check as I recall how it works is ECU dumps the ground to fire injector and MPI supply's the other side of circuit. Essentially when everything is working as I recall key on both wires at injectors plugging in read normal voltage then the ECU side grounds to open it i think.

I am interested to see what you figure out as anything I can think to offer you have tried or diagnosed already.
Hey Jed I appreciate your input.

The reason I created this thread was to help someone who has no idea what they are doing be “spoon fed” the solution if you will. IMO none of this was spoon fed and I’ve had to put in the work I actually knew on my own in order to have others want to help. I’m sure they would have helped but it sure does get the ball rolling when someone is trying to get from a to z if they can at least get to b,c,d,e and so on until someone can say hey I was there- let’s get you to h,i,j,k…

I think I’m reaching my threshold for z.

Other variables I have that should get me to z. I’m pretty much at x, terrible example but to me I have a few more tests before I call it ecu.

The thing is I bought some 1000cc injectors on eBay. Could be my problem they could be high z but I checked the resistance on the coil and they are coming up around 2-3 ohms.

I’m going to check again and make sure but I’ll try and find an old one and hook it up.

Also I had my engine harness almost pulled out to check for the wiring integrity. So I gotta give the ecu a chance to light up the noid in the position it’s in right now since I could perform the test above and it clicked the injectors and lit up my noid.

I don’t have much confidence anything is going to change but I will give it a chance to throw a fork in my wrench at this war table. Dsms are known to be fussy LOL.
 
My injectors are ohming at 3.2 ohms. That’s not considered high z right? Going to attach my ecu back up and give her a crank

Of course ecu plugged back in it would not fire.

I opened up to check the repair and I’m not sure if im seeing corrosion forming but I sent an email back to Ecmtuning to let them know I’m willing to ship back my ecu to take a look see at what’s going on in there.

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What injectors do you have?
In the distant past, Low Z (low resistance) coil injectors were all there was. The resistor pack in line with the coil took care to prevent blowing out the ECU circuits.

Now there are choices. You can use High Z (high resistance) injectors, but you need to REMOVE the resistor pack from the setup. There are bypass plugs for this.

You have to be careful and know weather or not they are High or Low Z before bypassing the resistor pack to prevent overloading the ECU.

Justin
 
They are low z injectors approx 3.0 ohms


I’m going to set up m oscilloscope and check out a pulse wave if I can get one to show up.
 
I was going to say this before but you said they already checked out your ECU. If the injectors are seeing 12v+ then rule out anything before the injectors. After the injectors you have the wire to the ECU, the connector, and the ECU its self. Your log is showing an injector pulse of 7.47ms with a DS of 1.6% which sounds about right so that totally rules out an input issue because the ECU is seeing everything it needs generate a pulse signal.

To me all of this means its the ECU output, the connector, or the wiring. I mean its kind of hard to tell but honestly part of that board doesn't look like it has a coat of lacquer on it which should ALWAYS be applied where you have exposed traces or have otherwise done any work on a PCB. It is there to protect the traces and solder joints from corrosion and oxidation. You also however said that you swapped in a known working ECU but never mentioned if that ECU was configured to work with your 1G CAS or SD for that matter. If they were than I would suggest looking at the wires between the injectors and the ECU or the ECU connector. If your not sure whether or not the ECU was configured correctly to work with your setup then I would suggest trying to find one that is and trying that test again.
 
Ok guys I really enjoy diagnosis so this was a love hate relationship. I hate my Dsm but I loved performing all these tests. To come to this conclusion would have only been possible with a scope and obviously priceless info.

I set up my scope channels

1 channel on ground signal on my inj 1
2 channel on inj 12v from mpi.

I spun my CAS with KEY ON.


Here’s my injector pulsing..

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Don’t exactly know if I performed the test correctly. Mostly since I’m pretty newbie at oscilloscopes.

I set my ground lead from channel one on battery negative.
The other yellow lead is attached to injector signal.

Green was attached to feed voltage. BUT it’s showing 0 voltage since I probably didn’t attach it good.
I can see the immediate grounding of the signal but if you take a look at the ground threshold it looks like it’s coming up a little short. Is that resistance on the signal wire?

It’s looking pretty negligible..

I’m still not sure where the hell im at on this diagnosis.

I’m just happy to have a scope and some Dsm buddies :)
 

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Alright I found some brake clean. I’m going to shove some in the vacuum line and listen to it start for a second, I'm getting impatient here.

. -55.5 is quite a lot if you still are on the 1000cc even on corn, but again it still should fire but run bad.

JED what did you mean by -55.5?

I didn't set up my link. I had a remote tuner named Scott Laird set me up. I'd send him logs and he'd adjust accordingly. Said he'd teach me, but honestly I didn't really understand anything that he was showing me.

Well I got some brake cleaner in the intake nipple for the BOV and she started up. It was nice to hear it start. My question is, why the hell is my injector pulse not clicking my injectors? 😭
 
Well I got some brake cleaner in the intake nipple for the bov and she started up. It was nice to hear it start.. my question is… why the hell is my injector pulse not clicking my injectors 😭
I've never seen the injectors you are running before. They were super not expensive for what looks like something similar to RC racing 1000cc Low Z injectors. The tips look different.

Do you have any other injectors on hand to try? They don't have to be big to idle.
 
I've never seen the injectors you are running before. They were super not expensive for what looks like something similar to RC racing 1000cc Low Z injectors. The tips look different.

Do you have any other injectors on hand to try? They don't have to be big to idle.
I don’t have any others on hand and I know. I’m questioning if this is the problem -_-

They were pretty cheapos meant to get the car running. I think what happened was my others kept getting clogged after trying to clean them. My gas tank rusted out so I imagine the injectors got clogged.

I put in a new gas tank, new fuel filter, new injectors.

Gas tank was from Rock Auto, fuel filter was from Autozone, and these stupid injectors were from fleabay.

They still fire with battery voltage (I jumped the terminals and lowered my fuel pressure gauge) but they are 3.0 ohms vs the 2.3 ohms I had on the other injectors, not sure if that’s why they won’t open.

I had a 9v battery that was drained to 8v, not sure if that would open them and it couldn’t. I might pick up a 9v battery and see if they open. For now I’m trying to source a set of injectors on Facebook marketplace and honestly I might just get some OEM injectors.

Wish I had that set of clogged injectors. I threw them away I think, I can’t remember. This car has been kicking my ass for so long I can’t remember if I threw them in the woods or if I kept them somewhere.
 
@Justin DuBois

Soooo, I did a thing LOL. I pulled the rail, running out of ideas and checked for injector spray. What do you know, one is working!

That’s 1 of 4 new injectors working -_- Well at least I got that going for me!!!!
WooooooohoooooooOoOoOoOoOoO!!!

I got a 2 year warranty on these Chinese injectors. MOSTPLUS+..

Most weird.

Also unplug your coil pack if you’re going to try this!

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Alright yall I found my old injectors. I'm going to revisit this same exact test but with my old injectors. I tried really hard to get them unstuck.. and they might be stuck but I'll see if I can find one good injector, and rotate it from 1-2-3-4 injector circuits.. I had crappy titon harbor freight o rings on my injectors which do seal, but I CANNOT perform this same test with these o rings. I'm going to jack these 80$ o rings and place them on my old injectors which have worked in the past. If they are working I'll get them cleaned. Unless someones willing to help me out with some old set they had laying around :). Not saying you gotta, but for SCIENCE!!! Lol :sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:
 
I would
Jist check at inj harness
One side is 12v wich came from mpi relay
All of 4 injectors are same wiring feed so they should have 12v on all four power side and they should have continuity each of them and they are same wire as 25 12 of ecu

The other side just recives a ground pulse from ecu , at their pins , check continuity on each line from inj harness to ecu pins
If all have comtinuity isnt wiring issue

If you have 12v then ecu just need to trigger by ground if you dont get that is an ecu related

So you can put ground on that wires and touch metal and see if injector clicks, with each injector if they do injectors arent bad neither

So try another ecu and look at cam sensor but even with bad cam you should have 2 inj working
 
Just an update guys I’ve had a lot going on and I had actually found my old 1000cc injectors. I kept imagining that I threw them away and I’m super stoked I didn’t.

I attached them to a 9v battery to check for clicking and only 1 wouldn’t. So trying to revive it I was using atf4+ fluid and just letting it sit. For days. That’s why this update is days and days later. So I’d just pour some atf into a bottle cap and then from the bottle cap I tipped that into the injector tip till it was full and let that sit in the injector while it was UPRIGHT. I’d keep trying to tap the 9v battery to see if it would click and slowly and slowly day by day it would become more noticeable. Also by the end of the day sometimes the atf wouldn’t be present in the tip anymore so I would keep pouring it in.

I took the time to try and watch YouTube videos about reviving dead injectors. It’s not an easy job, it’s pretty boring and you’re basically letting oil and some cleaners sit. Eventually the dead one came to life with a faint click about 5 days into it. I really do NOT HAVE THE FUNDS TO BUY INJECTORS. So I did what I could.

I watched a video where a guy took a screwdriver handle and tapped the injectors hard along the body to dislodge what was stuck inside, so I repeated that to my dead injector. What do you know it got unstuck! By unstuck I mean that the injector would click and allow fluid to pass through. ATF fluid was getting stuck and not spraying out the tip so I changed over to brake cleaner. I don’t have many options for cleaners and this was a slow process. Every day i passed the injector through these tests. Eventually I saw it spray a pattern that was better, but not great.

I wanted to check what the pattern was on the known good or clickable injectors and I noticed that 2 out of 4 were clicking but stuck open. I did the same trick by just whacking them with my screwdriver handle. It was like magic, they started holding the injector fluid and the way I tested if they were stuck open is I just left the injector unplugged from the 9v and sprayed brake cleaner in. All injectors were now firing.

I know some might disagree with how I went about the whole process. Some would say buy new ones, use carb cleaner. I have to stress that I don’t have the money to spend 200+ on some injectors.

That being said I swiped the o rings from the mostplus+ injectors since they could stay in the rail, and hooked everything back up for a final test of spinning the CAS while it was out of the camshaft and the key on.

It was like a dream come true, I heard each injector clicking. I think I’m at a completion for this full trouble shoot.

I’m not exactly sure what was going on with the mostplus+ injectors on the car but they would not fire at ALL. Fuel was at the rail and once it was in the rail the injectors (mostplus) would just simply not fire. Before the fuel was present they would fire for a second. But once the rail built even the slightest pressure they would stop firing.

Weird. But also they are cheap so what can you expect? I’m out about 80$ but I did get an email back from mostplus+ about a possible guarantee. I’d never recommend these for a 4g63 since they basically made me go through this whole diagnosis which had me about ready to set the car on fire purposely.

Right now I’m on baby sitting duty so I can’t hook everything back up yet but I will as soon as I can and give her a crank. I’ll probably spin the CAs again too just to make myself happy..

Appreciate everyone’s input and am glad I can contribute a whole diagnosis chain anyone can follow so long as they have access to an oscilloscope and can follow directions.
 
Ok I think I’ve come to a resolution. The injectors are shot and 3 of 4 are leaking. I verified this with my CAS test with key on and fuel rail propped up to check the injectors.

While testing the injectors want to stream out instead of pulse. They are clicking and when I hit one with my knife handle-with my hand on it holding the injector in the rail, it stops instantly as long as the cas is not spinning. Each injector I can make stop leaking when I hit it(BI7@$!!!) but the next rotation it’s just slowly leaking out. I can see this is effecting the fuel rail pressure. No fuel can build up since it’s leaking once it’s open.

The next step for me is to put this project on hold, or for me I’ll be attempting to revive these injectors. I don’t have a choice atm since injectors aren’t cheap and my bills are all due of course.

I’ll be cleaning these with brake clean and I’m not enthused about it maybe not working- but I’ve seen people get these things refurbished with enough tenacity. I mean look at the Dsm community LOL? I’m glad I never quit. Thank you guys for all the help. Chalking this up as an injector problem.

I think another major point is that the injector pulse should not be tested with a Autozone noid light because you’ll be grasping at air trying to chase your tail to realize everything is testing out but the noid light.

Bad injectors affect the circuit and one bad injector can show no pulse on a noid anyway.

Make sure you get an oscilloscope too, you’re chasing the wind not having one they are as easy as a multimeter to test something because you’re hooking into a ground and power source to read the circuit measurements under load.

I’m sad to be coming to a close on this as it has been fun to interact with you all especially with the “big wigs” on this site. Valuable information here. Make sure you are on your p’s and Q’s attempting to get any response on your posts if you’re stuck. No one wants to help anyone who posts once and then never responds or updates the results. If you give up, post that you’re selling the car.

There’s no need to start a thread and lead everyone down the same inconclusion. Create a build thread, update it everyday, whether you worked on the car or not- because the algorithm is to show the latest updated threads. Your post will show up on the latest threads and your post will be seen above every other post.

I was updating this thread in the beginning even with no responses but I built up traction because others saw I was struggling but I was still “pushing my car with it neutral. “ even though it wasn’t running, I got out and started pushing. Eventually someone will come along and get out of their car and help you struggle. It’s when someone is stuck in the car, with the emergency lights on. Blocking all of traffic where people start honking horns driving around you without any sense of urgency to help you when you don’t even wanna help yourself.

I hope that makes sense, glad to be moving past this problem! Injector pulse- RESOLVED. CHECK YOUR INJECTORS, DONT BUY CHEAP INJECTORS. Upgrade your o rings, check for pulse with the rail out!! Be safe and unplug your coil pack.. Car should be cold. That’s it.

Thanks everybody, check out my build thread for the rest of the story after I figure out the injectors. Maybe I’ll post back on here if I can get these injectors to come back to life :hellyeah::rocks:
 
Aight yall. I got some new to me injectors from a member on here. God bless him.

I troubleshooted some problems,

1. Had to change my oil since my old injectors had 2 injectors stuck open shooting fuel in the cylinders
2. I had to find 4 working injectors that were not sticking
3. Now that the car starts im having idle issues.

It's surging after it enters closed loop.
First start up, during open loop its starting up around 1k rpms and I need to give it some gas and hold it around 3k like I'm the IAC..

I checked the continuity between the pins and they are within spec. So I'm about to google the piss out of this but, I'm pretty happy to be here versus where I was when I first opened this thread.

Haven't done a boost leak test in over a year.
My wiring harness is kind of all over the place since I was trouble shooting the wiring.

Any advice is welcome. I charged up my battery, and am also attaching a log of the surging. Its clear the injector pulse is turning off when it calms back down but it instantly revs back up when the injectors fire again on DSMLINK.
 

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Aight yall. I got some new to me injectors from a member on here. God bless him.

What size are they, cause it doesn't look like you changed your settings in DSMLink?

I don't see a GM IAT sensor, do you still have a factory MAF and if so why are you configured to use SD right now?

Your front O2 sensor isn't working.

Idle surging is usually caused by an air leak and your log is a classic example of idle surging. Make sure your throttle cable is loose when the butterfly is closed, that the BISS screw is present and adjusted. Usually a boost leak test is called for now.
 
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