Continuos head gasket problems?

[GRNDSM]

I spend the entire summer on a blown head gasket (oil in coolant). Because there was no coolant in oil, I kept driving like that (drove it 700 miles to the shootout ran 11’s and drove it back). At the end of the summer I installed a different head (which was straight with-in .001”-.002”), a new factory stock head gasket and ARP studs (torqued to 100-105 ft*lbs).

Oil in coolant problem was solved, but my engine started to spit coolant and overheat. For my first trip to the track (with 14b), I was running 19-17psi boost on C-16, so I was getting ZERO knock. But blown head gasket symptoms were evident right away. The car spilled coolant out of overflow during my two passes and the car started to overheat on my 40min drive home. Temps went from 195deg at the beginning of the trip to 230 deg. as I was pulling into my driveway (it went from 220-230 in the last 5min of the trip).

Not wanting to believe the obvious, I tried installing a new radiator, radiator cap, running no thermostat. But the problem has gotten worse. The entire engine compartment would be covered in coolant/water and temps would go up to around 220 deg by the end of the ¼ mile pass.

This problem became especially bad when I had to bail out of Seekonk race in the semifinals. But at that point I could not go into a race with coolant temps of 240deg…

Last weekend, I had a chance to see what happens to my overflow canister. I dynoed my car (@25psi of boost it made 371hp, corrected to ~440 Dynojet hp) with overflow hose to my overflow canister pointed to the outside of the car. Right around 6000rpms coolant started to shoot across the room (almost horizontal). So it was under some serious pressure.

As much as I would like to deny it, I must face the obvious: the only way to pressurize the coolant to that extend is with a blown head gasket… Unless anyone has any other ideas? But what can cause a very well proven head gasket combination fail so quickly at such little boost with no knock?

Leon
RR

 

[Dsmed]

anything wrong on the block surface? You checked the head but what about the deck of the block itself? and maybe do away with the factory head gasket in place of a metal one.

 

[GRNDSM]

Unofortunately, I did not check the block (I never had such problem in the past). But you are right, should have.

We can argue all day if stock gasket is good enough 25-30psi. That is not the point. It appears that it failed when I was running 17-19psi on a 14b with no knock. No matter you might feel about a stock gasket, it shouldn't have failed at that level .

Leon
RR

 

[NosLaser]

...Oil in coolant problem was solved, but my engine started to spit coolant and overheat. For my first trip to the track (with 14b), I was running 19-17psi boost on C-16, so I was getting ZERO knock. But blown head gasket symptoms were evident right away. The car spilled coolant out of overflow during my two passes and the car started to overheat on my 40min drive home. Temps went from 195deg at the beginning of the trip to 230 deg. as I was pulling into my driveway (it went from 220-230 in the last 5min of the trip)....

This is exactly what my Laser was doing, so I know PRECISELY the symptoms you are experiencing, and what a pain it is to diagnose and cure. One thing I want to mention here is the core reason why these cars will push coolant. The big factor is you are mating an aluminum cylinder head to a cast iron block; each of them heat up at different rates and have their own 'warp' characteristics making it very difficult to create a pure seal between the two. (If we had an aluminum block, we wouldn't have NEAR the cylinder head sealing problems that we have now) The other factor is the spacing and size of the head bolts. The head will actually twist under high cylinder pressure situations, and will actually leak compression between the head studs, which is exactly why people will drill out the block and run a 1/2 inch head studs. This gets tricky as you can already see reliefs cut into the washers with our factory size head studs. One thing I do want to mention for those who may think it is okay is removing the thermostat is not a good idea for a street car. On a race car it doesn't matter because you will likely be making passes with the engine pretty cold so constant flowing coolant can only benefit you; however on a street driven car, without a thermostat it won't sit in the radiator long enough to be cooled down sufficiently. That was just a side note for those who may not know that.

...Not wanting to believe the obvious, I tried installing a new radiator, radiator cap, running no thermostat. But the problem has gotten worse. The entire engine compartment would be covered in coolant/water and temps would go up to around 220 deg by the end of the ¼ mile pass...
Same exact thing on my Laser. Except I went through 7 radiators, most of them metal, and the problem kept occuring. The reason is this is merely a band-aid fix till you blow the new one up. I even tried running a low pressure cap with hopes that it would merely blow the cap instead of the entire radiator; alas that didn't even help.

...Last weekend, I had a chance to see what happens to my overflow canister. I dynoed my car (@25psi of boost it made 371hp, corrected to ~440 Dynojet hp) with overflow hose to my overflow canister pointed to the outside of the car. Right around 6000rpms coolant started to shoot across the room (almost horizontal). So it was under some serious pressure....
Hint hint..that's cylinder pressure getting past your head gasket and pressurizing the coolant. Powerful stuff huh?

...As much as I would like to deny it, I must face the obvious: the only way to pressurize the coolant to that extend is with a blown head gasket… Unless anyone has any other ideas? But what can cause a very well proven head gasket combination fail so quickly at such little boost with no knock?...

Again, your gasket may not even be 'blown' by the set definition. The cylinder head is lifting; better yet 'twisting' between the head studs, OR you could have a bit of an issue with a slightly warped block deck surface. I will be running one of the Cometic head gaskets in my other thread, as it has seemed to perform the best. Unfortunately Leon, the only real remedy at this point is to have the block freshly decked true, make 100% sure the cylinder head is still true (I'd hate to see you overlook it because you think it still might be okay) and perhaps look into running larger head studs, and even as far as having the head and block drilled for additional dowels. Unless you can get them on your own, I can give you the number to a friend of mine who can get the Cometic head gaskets and you are more than welcome to try one and see how it works for you. So far, 25 pounds of boost and 129mph trap speeds he has not pushed coolant or blown one yet. I hope I helped offer a tad bit of insight, and I definately wish you luck.

Regards,

 

[black99gsx]

<<You checked the head but what about the deck of the block itself? and maybe do away with the factory head gasket in place of a metal one.
>>

My thoughts exactly in regards to the Mitsubishi metal head gasket. Go with it, its not too terribly expensive.

Regards,
David Phillips

 

[KenTSIII]

Yeah Leon.. I was gonna recomend the cometic also. We just setup an account w/ them last week & will be placing an order early this week. They have 2 different versions for our cars.. the normal 3 layer metal gasket & the "high boost" gasket. The normal gasket is available in varying thicknesses from .003 to .120. The "high boost gasket" is .054 thick w/ a .003 shim (picture a honda deck) that surrounds the fire rings. Retail price is estimated to be in the $80-100 area depending depending on if you'd like the normal or high boost versions. Feel free to give me a call or shoot me an email if you're interested.

 

[candela]

Well the latest on my car (as if anyone actually cares...) is that I seem to be pressurizing my cooling system as well. My motor is brand new and Im using a 4 layer mitsu metal on it. Apparantly the problem must be with the head gasket as I dont know what else could cause this. Everytime I drive, even without boosting at all as Im still breaking in the motor, I open my hood and my upper AND lower hoses are just swelling to about twice the size of normal. Im surprised they havent bursted

Anyhow my question to you guys is, is there anythign else that coudl be cause my problem. I mean I just bought this motor from slowboy and everything seemed fine until now. Ive been having silly/annoying heating problems just like Leon has desrcibed above and now this. After my first warmup/drive around the block I retorqued the head studs to 87ft lbs (as directed by the man himself) and still. SO!, Im assuming Im going to have to remove the head either way so now Im wondering if all this talk about the cometic gaskets has been put to use yet. Im running ross 9:1's right now and wouldn't mind getting a thicker gasket to drop the CR a little bit.

Anyhow any help, recommendations or advise as to what else to check woudl be much abliged... thanks

Austin

 

[DSMu4ia]

Maybe the gasket isn't sealing.

I know a few people that had problems with metal HG's sealing. Took one of the guys 4 head pulls to get it figured out.

 

[candela]

Actually it is, it turned out to be the greddy radiator cap I had on there. I guess my waterpump was doing good enough job and so was the 18psi greddy cap that it just loved beffin up my hoses. Did a compression test two days ago and got 180 straight across!

 

[VEX]

I've been having some major issues with my car as well. i replaced the headgasket the first time, and well the machine shop screwed it up and totalled jacked me around. they bent half the valves whent hey put them back in. I ran it for awhile, and it ran OK, but very low compression. So i took the head off again and found out that i couldn't shave it anymore, so i had to get a new head. I replaced the head and put a Stock head gasket on. Now, its no overheating at all, but its very rough until 3000 RPMS. And for some reason, the Boost gauge stoped working. And when i finally got everything together, The TPS, MAF, Temp sensor all showed up on the engine codes. Need Help. Does anyone know what this could be? last time i did the compression check i got 90 PSI which should be at 150-160. Maybe the rings? its shooting out a ton of carbon out of the pipe. Any ideas?

 

[Tevenor]

Did you plug your MAS back in?

 

[candela]

Souncs like you got the timing all messed up. Align your motor #1 at TDC and make sure everythign is ok. Then after that adjust ignition timing, then try to do the sensors and leaks and all that stuff...

 

[Doug99RS]

I don't know how friendly any of the repair shops are with you but I know at the dealership level we have a tool that can be hooked up to the radiator. It is able to check the flow of the water pump. I saw the mention of a block from slow boy, new radiator, new cap and one or two other things. A couple of thoughts I had were belt tension on the water pump and what are the effects of drag racing in relation to water pump efficiency, water pump efficiency at idle (the tool would show results), and pressure testing of the cap and coolant system.

Have you disabled the heater core or are you having problems with it? Poosible restriction in one of those areas. Frequently I do a coolant pressure test on the coolant system. I've never needed to pull the spark plugs out becuase I've not seen coolant going in to the cylinders (yet) in my five years working on Chryslers. But... if you remove the plugs and then pressurize the coolant system you MIGHT be able to encourage a leak in to the cylinders.

Also, verify your coolant/water mix. On some of the first gen chrysler minivans they do not heat or cool properly when the mix is not right.
Doug

 

[fivestardsm]

How much porting work was done on the head? It might be a long shot, but you might of ported so close to the waterjacket, that it could of cracked in the combustion chamber or between them!

Like I said, just a though, I've heard of it happening. A guy I know did it on a 3.1 in a beretta!!

Steve.

 

[GRNDSM]

I finally took the head off my old motor, I guess I was right, it did have a blown head gasket:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEngDSM/files/GRNMCH/HG1.jpg
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEngDSM/files/GRNMCH/HG2.jpg
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEngDSM/files/GRNMCH/HG3.jpg
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEngDSM/files/GRNMCH/HG4.jpg
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEngDSM/files/GRNMCH/HG5.jpg
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEngDSM/files/GRNMCH/HG6.jpg

This was a brand new Mitsu head gasket with around 500 miles, the head was checked ahead of time and it was straight with-in.002” (block was not checked), I used ARP studs torqued to 105ft*lbs with oil (not ARP moli-lube).

The problem started when I was still running a 14b with 17psi boost and ZERO knock. So it could not have been abuse. The compression was perfect 165 across all 4 (prior to disassembly) and there was no smoke.

I am still going to have to check the block, but otherwise, I am at a loss as why it happened in the first place.

Leon
RR

 

[turbobrian]

can the mitsu 4 layer head gasket be reused? if it looks good. or am i asking for trouble?

 

[GRNDSM]

I have heard numerous accounts of people re-using it with out any problems. But then again, I have also heard of people having a hard time getting them to seal in the first place.

So it seems like a 50/50 shot to me . But if you didn't have a problem with it in the first place, you should be able to re-use it.

Leon
RR

 

[JayHass]

Leon, if I were you I would get the block decked and have the head at least cleaned up. Two nice clean and true surfaces. It's bad enough we are stuck with an aluminum/cast iron combination.

I don't know...maybe I'm just super anal about things but that's what would make me comfortable.

 

[Violater101]

My money is on the block not being surfaced properly when you had it all done the first time. A friend had a similar problem as you are having. His engine has 5000 miles on it now since he did a rebuild for forged internals and has since blown 2 hg's (1 cometic and 1 stock metal hg). Turns out the block wasn't surfaced very good when he had the original rebuild done.

 

[speedytalon]

I have a 90 TSI and ended up haveing a real bad head gasket (enough pressure to shoot my dipstick out of the motor with a 16G @19psi) anyway I put a head with brand new everything in it ..cams, valves, guides, springs, etc ... I mean everything .. so basically brand spanking new. I should of had the head milled down a bit to compensate for the Cometic steal core head gasket I put in it. The head I had before was milled down really far.. like to the valves damn near haha. So anyway I can really feel the compression loss. I will soon take the head off to get it milled down more.

But I thought I would post my lack of thought on the project to remind everyone else if they are thinking of going with a thicker HG and the heads never been milled before.

 

[DV8tion]

Are the ARP head studs undercut? (narrower in the middle)

 

[GRNDSM]

OK here is a un update....

New decked block. planed head (obsolutely PERFECT "mirror like" finish), Cometic head gasket. ARPs torqued to 95ft*lbs (with their luble), retorqued to 105 (did not actually move).

First 10-20 passes with 26-29psi and no knock were fine, but then, it started pushing coolant on the dyno at the shootout and had gotten worse and worse since then...

The only thing that I am not sure of the Cometic gasket. It looks good, but that is the only "unproven" item of the bunch...

Leon
RR

 

[MNGSX]

The cometic is great for 0-ringed parts.

The factory gasket probably best for non o-ringed parts.

 

[awd4bangr]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
OK here is a un update....

New decked block. planed head (obsolutely PERFECT "mirror like" finish), Cometic head gasket. ARPs torqued to 95ft*lbs (with their luble), retorqued to 105 (did not actually move).

Leon
RR

Leon,

Have you chased the threads with a tap to make sure they are clean so you're getting a good torque value on those studs?

95ftlbs with arp lube is actually a lot of torque and 105ftlbs with ARP lube is crazy torque. I wonder if you're not distorting the block deck from the amount of torque being applied?


For everyones reference here's my thoughts on head studs and gaskets.

Stock engines should be using stock style gaskets. If you're replacing a blown gasket in the car do not use a metal gasket. Make sure you tape off the block deck to protect everything except the head fastener bolt holes and run a tap through every hole. Use a good cleaner and some air to blow out the holes. Install your head studs, use the ARP lube and don't torque the holy shit out of them. If you do go crazy with the torque you will distort the cylinder bores and deck.

Metal gaskets are designed for racing applications and compensating for material removed from the machining process. Generally they require a different surface finish on the block deck and head to seal correctly. Skip the machining requirements for the gasket and you can expect problems.

Engines being rebuilt should be machined with a torque plate. The torque plate needs to be set-up exactly as the assembly will be installed on the car. This is going to help correct the distortion caused when head studs are applied and he-man torque is applied to them.

If you're using ARP studs, supply the machinist with ARP studs. Supply the machinist with the head gasket you intend to use on the car. If it's not a metal gasket you need to purchase one for the car and one for the machinist. Make sure the machinist uses the torque value and lube that you intend to use on the car. Machining the block with bolts torqued to 50ftlbs with engine oil and an old used gasket won't do much good on your metal gasket, ARP stud 90ftlb torque with ARP lube engine.

 

[awd4bangr]

Originally posted by MNGSX
The cometic is great for 0-ringed parts.

The factory gasket probably best for non o-ringed parts.

Can you explain your thoughts on this?