1G A/T in a 2G

[Rick539]

We are currently building a car for the strip. Have a 95 talon 6 bolt with a M/T which we are swaping for a A/T. I know the W4a33 is the tran type and that we need to use a kiggly adapter. We are fabracating our own mounts. What are the differences in the early A/T's? If you use the correct transfer case, can any A/T for a AWD bolt up to the 6 bolt.

 

[Car Cannibal]

You are going to want the 2G auto trans with the Kiggly adapter anyways, it has the lockup converter which is made by Precision Industries. Putting a 1G auto trans in your car does not make much sense especially since the converters out there are all stock restalls and no lock up.

 

[Wizard]

A strip car has no need for a lock-up convertor. As far as I know most strip ATs also don't use OD.

Wiz

 

[twack]

A strip car has no need for a lock-up convertor. As far as I know most strip ATs also don't use OD.

Wiz

Until you need a fourth gear

 

[Car Cannibal]

Wizard, have you ever heard of someone locking the converter during a 1/4 mile pass?? And what that did for MPH due to torque converter efficiency??

Just because no one here does it does not mean there is no value to locking the converter, especially on these high revving cars. Call Precision Industries and ask them about locking the converter.

 

[inneedof]

i haven't heard pf anyone locking up a converter in the 1/4... a 1g tranny will be just fine, and you can find a good converter it just takes a great deal of looking and talking to the right people... and if you have a 6 bolt and use a 1g tranny you dont need the adapter

 

[Jason's TSI]

Until you need a fourth gear

Have trapped 148.9 mph in third, with plenty of rpm left. That is on 26" qtp's though.
Stock restall (done by Hughes) is doing great in our car.

 

[Rick539]

Let me ask a second question. Are the mounts on a 1G the same as a 2G. So if I needed a cheap tranny just to do our mock up we could go with either.

 

[dsm dork]

Have trapped 148.9 mph in third, with plenty of rpm left. That is on 26" qtp's though.
Stock restall (done by Hughes) is doing great in our car.

What RPM were you at in the traps?

 

[Jason's TSI]

What RPM were you at in the traps?

Around 8000rpm

 

[Car Cannibal]

Jason have you looked at your torque converter efficiency, it's coming out to 26%, not good.

1G has a 3.30 rear gear and 1:1 3rd gear tranny ratio.

http://www.tciconverters.com/Products/TechInfo/Calculators.asp#4

 

[Jason's TSI]

Jason have you looked at your torque converter efficiency, it's coming out to 26%, not good.

1G has a 3.30 rear gear and 1:1 3rd gear tranny ratio.

http://www.tciconverters.com/Products/TechInfo/Calculators.asp#4

That's slip percentage, NOT efficiency.

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

Let me ask a second question. Are the mounts on a 1G the same as a 2G. So if I needed a cheap tranny just to do our mock up we could go with either.

you will end up having to fab up the front & rear motor mounts if you want to put a 1g AT into a 2G chassis... The way the 2g's do it is that you have 3 tranny mounts and 1 motor mounts... the 1g's have 3 motor mounts, 1 tranny mount. -Basically, look at the differences in a 2g 7-bolt motor compared to a 1g 6-bolt. The 2g motor does not have the motor mount provisions cast into the block itself... the forward & rear mounts have been cast into the bell housing of the tranny in the stock 2g setup... Your choice: -Fab yer own motor mounts for the 6-bolt w/1g AT in a 2g, or use the 6-bolt w/2g AT w/ stock mounts and get the Kiggly adpater (and a locking TC).
I highly recommend IPT for your AT needs:
http://www.importperformancetrans.com/

If it helps, I can snap some pix of my old stock 1G AT's bell housing... Just let me know. Good luck fellow AT'r

 

[Car Cannibal]

Please explain??

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

Don't mind the art work (or lack theirof)... This pic is attempting to explain the differences between the 2 generations' motor/tranny mount configurations.
Basically, the mounts from the 1g AT won't line up to the 2g chassis as they simply aren't there. The 1g mounting style has them cast into the block.
The problem for the 2g w/ a 1g AT would then be:

A) fab custom motor mounts off of the 6-bolt motor

or

B) use a 2g AT tans + Kiggly kit and keep the OE tranny mounts.

 

[Wizard]

Biggest problem I see in locking up the converter during a pass is the fact that it probably cant handle it. Its a simple clutch disk that was never designed to be used during hard acceleration. Not to mention if the lock-up gets burned up, it usually does a number on your fluid and could cause other problems in the tranny. And since no one makes an upgrade lock-up clutch.....

Honestly...you won't need 4th gear. If you need more gear to go faster, most people just rev higher. Rather than waste the time and power loss of going to 4th. Remember, 4th is an OD gear....big change in ratio made for economy rather than power. Maybe Kiggly or Jason can try to go into 4th during a pass and see what grenades....I volunteer them.



Glad to see that old junk GSX is topping the charts....who would've thought eh?

Wiz

 

[kiggly]

That's slip percentage, NOT efficiency.

Once you are past the torque multiplication phase and the stator is no longer loading the sprag, slippage = efficiency. This phase is called "coupling." With the spragless your efficiency will be a little bit lower because the stator can't freewheel. The torque multiplication phase ends somewhere in the 80-90% input shaft vs converter body speed ratio range.

Anyway, total gearing in an AWD AT is 4.422. At 0% slip you would have to be at ~8500rpm. Less than 5% slip is doing absolutely great, so my guess is you're close to 9k through the traps if that converter is working really well.

Are you making it out again this year John?

Kevin

 

[Jason's TSI]

Once you are past the torque multiplication phase and the stator is no longer loading the sprag, slippage = efficiency. This phase is called "coupling." With the spragless your efficiency will be a little bit lower because the stator can't freewheel. The torque multiplication phase ends somewhere in the 80-90% input shaft vs converter body speed ratio range.

Anyway, total gearing in an AWD AT is 4.422. At 0% slip you would have to be at ~8500rpm. Less than 5% slip is doing absolutely great, so my guess is you're close to 9k through the traps if that converter is working really well.

Are you making it out again this year John?

Kevin

Just curious where you got the 4.42 number from, and yes the car will be back at the track this year.

 

[kiggly]

The 4.422 number is from the service manual. It is the ~3.30 rear gear multiplied by the ~1.34 ratio between the primary drive gear and the center diff gear. FWD is 4.376 total gearing.

I'm not sure if we will be out with Dean's car again this year. It has some insane, terrible misfire that showed up at the talon shootout and has progressed to not firing by 15psi boost. We've replaced most all the components (MSD with an ARC2, different coil sets/wires, etc) and nothing fixed it.

Kevin