Help, Multiple Problems...

Spoolin98 · Feb 14, 2006

Hey guys I need some help getting my brothers car running right. To make a long story short, he bought a 91 talon tsi awd not knowing that the axle bracket bolts were snapped off inside the block. I ended up pulling the motor to extract the bolts. I replaced the intake manifold gasket because there was a huge vacuum leak. I dropped the motor back in and ran into a few problems.

#1
The CEL is on only at idle, when you give it throttle it turns off. Anyone have this same problem? How did you fix it? I am not around the car. I'm away at school.
My brother bought a datalogger, but cannot seem to get the thing to work. First the software sent by pocketlogger was faulty, now he got the software working, but the palm keeps telling him to check the connection. He followed vfaq for the installation of the logger cable.

#2
The temp gauge does not work since I reinstalled everything. I took the car to autozone, the guy there said he knew a bit about dsms, he looked at the car and said it had a 2g thermostat housing, and the person bent these pins to fit this female connector on (attached pictures). It looks like the part being pointed to has been replaced, there is some sort of sealant around it, the grey stuff. Is this a 2g housing? I dont understand why it is not working now, because it was working before.

#3
The car stutters around mid range rpms. The only thing I touched were spark plugs, wires, and the coilpack(which was swapped onto another IM). I gapped and put new plugs in, that did not fix it. The car did not do this before I pulled the motor. I did a boost leak test, it seems the only place there is a leak is the throttle body seals, which explains why I need the BISS screw all the way in to get the car to idle correctly.

Sorry for the long post. I just want to get this car running right already.
Thanks in advance.

steve-o_95_GST · Feb 14, 2006

for the t-stat housing, it is a 1g housing. I just swapped sensors from my 2g one to the 1g one last night for my 6 bolt swap. The 1g has more sensors in it than the 2g does, like the 3 prong sensor, and the 2 vacuum ports

blackGSX2g · Feb 14, 2006

Well first off the picture you posted is of a 1g thermostat housing.

This pic should help you decipher which coolant sensors you need.

Going from right to left: Temp Gauge on your cluster - temp input to ECU - cooling fan.

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Does the radiator fan cycle on and off?

If you could get your logger working, see if the ECU will display proper coolant temps.

Also, I'd suggest conducting a boost leak test to see if that is part of your sputtering problem. If that doesn't work, you could try swapping in your other coil pack that is known to work to see if that solves your misfire problem.

Spoolin98 · Feb 14, 2006

If you read my first post, I did do a boost leak test, the only major leak is the throttle body seals.

As far as swapping in the other coil pack, there was only one to begin with. I swapped the original coil pack onto a different manifold, 2 manifolds 1 coilpack, so that must not be the problem.

I dont have any really good pictures of the thermostat housing, I cannot remember if the engine coolant temp sensor is connected or not. The fans do turn on. Would the car run properly without that sensor connected? My brother has been driving it over 100 miles a day, so I would assume so. I believe only the engine coolant tamp gauge and engine coolant temp switch are hooked up, but the cluster gauge is not working.

Is the engine coolant temp gauge unit from a 2g then? Why would the 2 prongs be bent together to be able to fit a female connector over them? The guy at autozone said the unit is from a 2g, they use a different connector, the 1gs use the female connector. So did the previous owner put on a 2g temp gauge unit and just bend the prongs to fit a female connector on it?

I am not around the car to get the logger working, so that is out of the question.
Any other comments/suggestions?
Thanks for your help guys.

Spoolin98 · Feb 14, 2006

One more question, If you look at the attached picture. The connector on the throttle body with the arrow pointing at it was horrible. It was fraying so badly it broke right off, you can see the exposed copper wire in the picture. I got the same connector off a 1G N/T, it was not exactly the same, but it fits. Is this ok? I am assuming yes since it is only a single wire or a one way signal.

femmeDSM · Feb 14, 2006

it's hard to tell from the picture you posted (weird angle), but it almost looks like the arrow is pointing to the Coolant Temp Sensor instead of the gauge sending unit... :confused:

if it is, that's definitely the CEL you've been getting. Is the car ever hard to start? I'm assuming that it does start in the first place............

The t-stat housing in your pic definitely looks like a 1g though....I'm not sure what "Guy At Autozone" was referring to...

As far as the strange wiring....I can tell you this much -- perhaps some of it will help you get the wiring straight.

The gauge sending unit has one prong on a 1g. The wire that connects to it is a yellow with blue-ish green stripe (on my 1990 at least). The Coolant Temp Sensor has two wires. One green with dark (black?) stripe, and one yellow. The green wire is the power wire IIRC, and plugs onto the "angled" terminal.

My wires were beyond screwed when I bought my GSX, and I just re-wired both of the sensors down there and ended up not using a plug at all for the gauge sending unit (just used a good spade connector that fit over the terminal. works great). I would imagine you could use the same process with the ECT if the plug is messed up on this one as well. I spliced new wires to both of these sensors to make sure I got a good connection -- the wires like to fray down there, as it gets super hot in that area.

Edit: If you'd like, I can go down to the garage and snap some pics of the thermostat housing/sensor area. I have my intake out at the moment, so it'd be easy to get some clear shots.....Let me know if that would help you.

femmeDSM · Feb 14, 2006

Spoolin98 said:
One more question, If you look at the attached picture. The connector on the throttle body with the arrow pointing at it was horrible. It was fraying so badly it broke right off, you can see the exposed copper wire in the picture. I got the same connector off a 1G N/T, it was not exactly the same, but it fits. Is this ok? I am assuming yes since it is only a single wire or a one way signal.

That's the throttle position switch. I've seen a couple of 1gs that don't even have this "plug". They have just wired it with a spade connector. Mine looks horrible too, and I'm expecting it to go any time now.......

As long as you get a good connection with the wire and the terminal, it'll be fine. :thumb:

Spoolin98 · Feb 14, 2006

I am unbelievably confused now. Maybe I am pointing to the wrong thing? Does anyone have an actual picture, a good one showing all the connections on the thermostat housing? The diagram is good, but I cant tell dimensions on it. Without the car here, I just cant understand this through pictures and words. I'm a hands on man. I dont think the thermostat housing has anything to do with the CEL because it turns off when your on the throttle. I figured that had something to do with throttle body?

femmeDSM · Feb 15, 2006

Spoolin98 said:
I am unbelievably confused now. Maybe I am pointing to the wrong thing? Does anyone have an actual picture, a good one showing all the connections on the thermostat housing? The diagram is good, but I cant tell dimensions on it. Without the car here, I just cant understand this through pictures and words. I'm a hands on man. I dont think the thermostat housing has anything to do with the CEL because it turns off when your on the throttle. I figured that had something to do with throttle body?

Hold that thought. I will run down to the garage and get some pics for you. Give me like 10 mins............

Spoolin98 · Feb 15, 2006

Your awesome, Thanks. Ill be waiting.

femmeDSM · Feb 15, 2006

Sorry, a little longer than 10 minutes...haha. Photoshop was acting up...

Anyway, here you go:

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Figure A is the Coolant Temp Fan Switch. (Unplugged in my photos, because I am in the half-assed process of removing my A/C. LOL

. Yours may or may not have a black plug attached to it. This sensor is part of the A/C system and does not affect the way the car runs -- it just controls when the A/C fan kicks on).

Figure B is the Coolant Temperature Sensor. (This has a two-prong connector. One of the terminals is vertical, the other is at a slight angle. The red wires running to it will not be present on your car. These are the wires that I re-did after the original wires snapped off of the plug. This sensor you need to worry about. If it goes, the car will not run right, and sometimes will not even start. It will also throw a mysterious random CEL that has a tendency to come and go as it pleases).

Figure C is the Coolant Gauge Sending Unit. (Note that I also re-wired this, and chucked the original plug, as it was extremely brittle, and broke the first time I unplugged it. I ran new wire to it -- black wire pictured. Stock wire is yellow with blue/green stripe, and looks exactly like the wire for the fuel gauge back in the hatch. Not much to this. Unplug it and your gauge won't work. Plug it in and it will. That's pretty much all it does).

I got a couple more pictures that may help if you are still confused. if you'd like to see pictures of different angles, or different areas of the car, just let me know. I am obsessed with my car, and I will go down and take pictures of anything at pretty much any time. For real. Lol.

Spoolin98 · Feb 15, 2006

My housing is COMPLETELY different from yours. My coolant temp fan switch is two connectors like a T. My coolant gauge sending unit is to prongs side by side, bent together to fit the female connector over it. And where your coolant temperature sensor is, I have a yellowish thing with vacuum lines connected to it?

femmeDSM · Feb 15, 2006

Do you possibly have a larger copy of that first picture you posted?

That thermo housing really looks like a 1g.......It almost looks like someone took all of the stock sensors out and just replaced them in random locations...............

If you had a bigger version of those pics you posted up there, I might be able to take a closer look. The sensor that is in the "Rad. Fan Switch" location on your car looks mysteriously like a coolant temp sensor from what I can see from here....like....Exactly like a coolant temp sensor.......... :confused:

Spoolin98 · Feb 15, 2006

Yeah it does look like the coolant sensor. I am getting picture together right now, give me a minute.

Spoolin98 · Feb 15, 2006

These are all the picture I have that have a decent shot of the thermo housing.
I can zoom in on the housing if you need me too, but it distorts the pictures. If you look closely you can see the bent pins touching each other.

femmeDSM · Feb 15, 2006

I have no idea what the "yellow thing with vacuum lines connected to it" could be...
Based on the pictures, and from what you describe, it sounds like someone may have put the coolant temp sensor in the "fan switch" location, and tried to use either the temp sensor or the fan switch as the gauge sending unit. The rad. fan switch has two prongs that are much smaller than the temp sensor's prongs. it also has a "hood" over it, but if someone were to remove that, and squeeze the prongs together, they might be able to fit a single-prong female connector over it (i.e. the one that would go to the temp gauge).

Have you followed the vacuum hose from the mysterious third sensor to see where it goes? From the pics, it looks like it goes toward the throttle body, but I can't be sure. Have you tried following the wires from either of the sensors that are plugged in to see where they connect? I listed stock wire colors up there ^^ for my car, but I'm not sure if they would be the same on a 91+......

femmeDSM · Feb 15, 2006

Also, I located these for you....These are links to images of the actual sensors we are discussing, courtesy of DSMotorsport. Unfortunately, their ECT has the black plug on it, so you can't see the connectors, but they almost form a "T" like what you are describing.

Coolant Temp Sensor:
http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/maintparts_files/coolant-temp-sensor.jpg

Gauge Sending Unit:
http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/maintparts_files/coolant-gauge-sensor.jpg

Coolant Temp Fan/Rad. Fan Switch:
http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/maintparts_files/coolant-temp-sensor-fan-swi.jpg

Maybe if you were to remove each of the sensors from the thermostat housing and compare them to these pictures, you might be able to identify which one is which.

Spoolin98 · Feb 15, 2006

The 90 housing is obviously different from the 91 housing, considering I have vacuum lines and you do not. There is only so much I can do without the car in front of me. I know when I pulled the motor there was a loose wire missing a connector on the end of it in that area. I just taped it off since it wasn't being used. I used all the same wires as before, and put them in same spots, and now the temp does not work, it did before. I am going to have my brother take some pictures and post them. Thanks for all your help.
Any other suggestions/comments?

femmeDSM · Feb 15, 2006

yeah, definitely have him post pictures that are specifically focused in that area....Definitely something weird going on here, perhaps someone with a 91+ will be able to ID any connectors that I'm missing on my 90 (damn 1990s and their weirdly different setups, haha).

I know it's hard to troubleshoot a car that's not in front of you....If I was any closer, I'd gladly go out and have a look....I have unfortunately become more familiar with this particular area of my car than I would ever like to be. LOL

.

Spoolin98 · Feb 15, 2006

femmeDSM said:
yeah, definitely have him post pictures that are specifically focused in that area....Definitely something weird going on here, perhaps someone with a 91+ will be able to ID any connectors that I'm missing on my 90 (damn 1990s and their weirdly different setups, haha).

I know it's hard to troubleshoot a car that's not in front of you....If I was any closer, I'd gladly go out and have a look....I have unfortunately become more familiar with this particular area of my car than I would ever like to be. .

Thanks again, I appreciate you taking time to help me out. I am determined to get to the bottom of this. I will definitely have him take some up close pictures.

femmeDSM · Feb 15, 2006

Spoolin98 said:
Thanks again, I appreciate you taking time to help me out. I am determined to get to the bottom of this. I will definitely have him take some up close pictures.

Not a problem

Thanks for the rep point, as well.

ddavisaf · Feb 15, 2006

Vaccum lines? Not on the T-housing... Give me a minute to read your thread and we'll get to the bottom of this hopefully. Claire, stick around? I'm sure if we put our heads together we'll both have headaches and two is always better than one. Or something like that...

Spoolin98 · Feb 15, 2006

Wonderful, added help, Thanks Damien.

ddavisaf · Feb 15, 2006

Spoolin98 said:
Hey guys I need some help getting my brothers car running right. To make a long story short, he bought a 91 talon tsi awd not knowing that the axle bracket bolts were snapped off inside the block. I ended up pulling the motor to extract the bolts. I replaced the intake manifold gasket because there was a huge vacuum leak. I dropped the motor back in and ran into a few problems.

#1
The CEL is on only at idle, when you give it throttle it turns off. Anyone have this same problem? How did you fix it? I am not around the car. I'm away at school.
My brother bought a datalogger, but cannot seem to get the thing to work. First the software sent by pocketlogger was faulty, now he got the software working, but the palm keeps telling him to check the connection. He followed vfaq for the installation of the logger cable.

#2
The temp gauge does not work since I reinstalled everything. I took the car to autozone, the guy there said he knew a bit about dsms, he looked at the car and said it had a 2g thermostat housing, and the person bent these pins to fit this female connector on (attached pictures). It looks like the part being pointed to has been replaced, there is some sort of sealant around it, the grey stuff. Is this a 2g housing? I dont understand why it is not working now, because it was working before.

#3
The car stutters around mid range rpms. The only thing I touched were spark plugs, wires, and the coilpack(which was swapped onto another IM). I gapped and put new plugs in, that did not fix it. The car did not do this before I pulled the motor. I did a boost leak test, it seems the only place there is a leak is the throttle body seals, which explains why I need the BISS screw all the way in to get the car to idle correctly.

Sorry for the long post. I just want to get this car running right already.
Thanks in advance.

#1-We'll need a code to properly diagnose this problem
#2-This is definately a 1GB thermostat housing. We'll get to the rest of this in a minute.
#3-What kind of spark plugs did you put back in? What were the resistance readings of the coil pack's primary and secondary coils? Have you fixed the TB seal yet? A boost leak and poor ignition system will cause the car to stumbling at midrange.

Spoolin98 · Feb 15, 2006

ddavisaf said:
#1-We'll need a code to properly diagnose this problem
#2-This is definately a 1GB thermostat housing. We'll get to the rest of this in a minute.
#3-What kind of spark plugs did you put back in? What were the resistance readings of the coil pack's primary and secondary coils? Have you fixed the TB seal yet? A boost leak and poor ignition system will cause the car to stumbling at midrange.

My brother is in the process of getting the logger to work. Once he does I will get you that code. The spark plugs are NGK 6's, gapped to .028-.030. The coil pack was working fine before I pulled the motor, all I did was swap it onto another manifold and put it back on the motor. I was under the impression that if your coils were bad the car would not run? What should the resistance be? I am not near the car, so I can not fix the throttle body leak. The car was not stuttering before I pulled the motor, all i touched were the plugs, wires, and coils. So I doubt it is the TB seals cause the stuttering, its the 2 seals inside the throttle body. They had to have been bad since before I pulled the motor, and since it didn't stutter before, is it safe to rule that out?

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