Question about camber,toe, and camber kits

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 14, 2005

I have a question about camber.

I have an eibach pro-kit with 1 coil cut(don't ask it came like that) and tokico "Blue" shocks.

I got new tires and got an alignment on saturday.

In the front my came was off about 1 degree to the highest range in the front and about .3 or .4 degrees off in the rear. The toe is fine on front and rear i believe.

Do I need a kit for the rear and the front?

The ingalls are about 120 for the front and 90 for the rear. I know they have DIY kit for the rear but I wasn't sure if it was a good idea or the degree of difficulty on installing camber kits.

I will post the exact numbers from the alignment when I get home.

gsx rated98 · Feb 14, 2005

numbers like that really arent going to hurt your tires much at all. It will ware a little more on the inside of the tire, but not really something that you should be concered with.

wret · Feb 14, 2005

L2RTSiAWD said:
In the front my came was off about 1 degree to the highest range in the front and about .3 or .4 degrees off in the rear. The toe is fine on front and rear i believe.

Those numbers dont seem consistent with the springs you described. Are you saying that the camber is 0.3-0.4° out of spec.? If so, you could benefit from a quarter inch or so of spacers in the rear and leave the front alone. I left my fronts at 1.5° at the recommendation of my mechanic, a racecar builder and driver. I havent noticed any uneven tire wear at all. Proper tow settings become more critical when youre running a little negative camber though.

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 14, 2005

wret said:
Those numbers dont seem consistent with the springs you described. Are you saying that the camber is 0.3-0.4° out of spec.? If so, you could benefit from a quarter inch or so of spacers in the rear and leave the front alone. I left my fronts at 1.5° at the recommendation of my mechanic, a racecar builder and driver. I havent noticed any uneven tire wear at all. Proper tow settings become more critical when youre running a little negative camber though.

This is why I wanted to post the hard numbers.

I have a 2-finger gap in the back and a 1-finger gap in the front.

Here are the numbers.

Camber:
Front Left -1.6 Front Right -1.9 (Specified Range for the front is -0.6 to 0.4)
Rear Left -2.6 Rear Right -2.5 (Specified Range for the rear is -2.2 to -1.2)

Toe:
Front Left 0.01 Front Right 0.00 (Specified Range for the front is -0.12 to 0.12)
Rear Left 0.22 Rear Right 0.13 (Specified Range for the rear is 0.00 to 0.24)

wret · Feb 14, 2005

Your rear camber is pretty far out. I'd start with about 3/8 inches of spacers. I'm not sure about that right front. That's a little much.

The rear spacers are about a difficulty factor of 2 on a 1-10 scale. I've not heard of any failure of the bolts. If you're worried about it, you could order high strength bolts from McMaster-Carr.

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 14, 2005

wret said:
Your rear camber is pretty far out. I'd start with about 3/8 inches of spacers. I'm not sure about that right front. That's a little much.

The rear spacers are about a difficulty factor of 2 on a 1-10 scale. I've not heard of any failure of the bolts. If you're worried about it, you could order high strength bolts from McMaster-Carr.

I appreciate your help since I'm a suspension newb.

When you say 3/8 inches of spacers you mean washers?

I was looking at the VFAQ and it looks like I should get wide washers and use as few as possible? :confused:

Also are recommending a front kit? I'm mainly concered with tire wear being minimal not really too much performance oriented.

wret · Feb 14, 2005

If you can find 1/8" inch thick washers, you would use 3 under each bolt, 4 bolts on each side. That's 24 washers. That much thickness would probably leave you with insufficient engagement of the bolts. Look for bolts that are at least half an inch longer than stock.

If some of your performance driving is done other than in a straight line, the -1.6° in the front is not so bad. This will not significantly shorten you tire tread life as long as you keep your toe in spec. I would be a little concerned that it is uneven. Are you sure your spring height is equal on both sides?

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 14, 2005

wret said:
If you can find 1/8" inch thick washers, you would use 3 under each bolt, 4 bolts on each side. That's 24 washers. That much thickness would probably leave you with insufficient engagement of the bolts. Look for bolts that are at least half an inch longer than stock.

Thanks, when I take one off I'll just bring it with me and find one longer

wret said:
This will not significantly shorten you tire tread life as long as you keep your toe in spec.

Ok, because after spending almost 400 on tires I don't want my wife bitching at me in a year that I need to replace them again.(I only drive about 5000-7000 miles a year)

wret said:
I would be a little concerned that it is uneven. Are you sure your spring height is equal on both sides?

I'm not sure exactly. As I said in my first post I bought the car with a coil cut. They could have cut more on one side.

You think instead of spending 120 on a camber kit I should just get new springs?

wret · Feb 14, 2005

Here's what you want:

Washer - 91100A170

Bolt-

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

jtmcinder · Feb 14, 2005

If tire-wear is a concern, then you have a decision to make. The fronts will be fine (although you are really much too low for your springrates for good handling), but the rears are a problem. This is doubly an issue because rears have a tendency to wear faster than fronts when the alignment is off.

One option is to delete all of the rear toe and soften the camber by a bit less than a degree using 3/8" of spacers, as Ron suggested. The other option - which I would prefer, because it will retain some straight-line stability - is to delete more than a degree using 1/2" of spacers and back the toe off to .10 per side.

But you can't run spec rear toe with 2.5* camber. You'll eat the inner edges.

- Jtoby

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 14, 2005

Ok I could just add a few more washer to space it out to a 1/2 inch right?
Would the same size bolt work?

For both of you, what do you think about my idea of getting springs instead of front camber kit. I do want ok handling and if I need to change the springs I'd rather spend the money on that then a front camber kit.

Suggestions are more than welcome.

P.S. The bolts come in packs of 25 for 8.88
The washers packs of 10 for 4.90

I can't just buy 32 washers and 8 Bolts from that site?

wret · Feb 14, 2005

Yes, just use more washers. I changed the washer part number to fender washer (more surface area) that comes in packs of 50. They are slightly thinner at 2.5 mm but you will have slightly more than the 4" of total spacer thickness that you need.

New springs might be a better option in long run, but unless you go all the back to stock height, you could still use some spacers in the rear.

jtmcinder · Feb 14, 2005

Yes, new springs. You're too low in the front for your rates and this is costing you a ton of front cornering grip and is adding to the understeer.

To be blunt, I'd be thinking of pitching almost everything you've got. For an off-the-shelf street set-up, ProKits and Illuminas are popular and cheap (and I've autocrossed on them and they're OK [but nothing more than OK]); the better OTS option is H&R OE Sports and Koni Yellows with SP eccentrics to add camber to the front and washers to take some out of the rear. Slammed might be sexy, but you can't be low without high spring rates if you actually like to drive. The other advantage of Konis is that you can swap in a coilover kit later and the shocks will be able to handle much higher spring rates.

- Jtoby

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 14, 2005

Since you changed the washer part number how many washers out of the 50 am I going to need? I want to order the bolts and washers as soon as possible.

Jtoby: I would love to ditch my whole setup. I just have to figure out someway to convince the wife. :cool:

Also what are "SP eccentrics" ?

jtmcinder · Feb 15, 2005

I don't like talking in terms of a number of washers since I have no idea how thick your washers are. I always talk in the terms of inches. Sorry I can't help on that.

I understand the issue of "convincing my wife" better than most people. Say no more.

SP eccentrics are replacement bushings for the eyes of the front upper pivots. They allow you to add or subtract about 3/4 degree of camber, as well shorten the effective length of the upper arm to adjust the front bump-camber curve. On a moderately lowered drag car, they can be used to bring camber back towards zero for launching. On an autocross car, they can be used to add some camber and steepen the bump-camber curve. They only have one weakness: the bushing only has a lip on one side, so they often start to wiggle a bit. But ACM and others have come up with a fix involving using two bushings per pivot.

- Jtoby

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 15, 2005

jtmcinder said:
I don't like talking in terms of a number of washers since I have no idea how thick your washers are. I always talk in the terms of inches. Sorry I can't help on that.

I understand the issue of "convincing my wife" better than most people. Say no more.

SP eccentrics are replacement bushings for the eyes of the front upper pivots. They allow you to add or subtract about 3/4 degree of camber, as well shorten the effective length of the upper arm to adjust the front bump-camber curve. On a moderately lowered drag car, they can be used to bring camber back towards zero for launching. On an autocross car, they can be used to add some camber and steepen the bump-camber curve. They only have one weakness: the bushing only has a lip on one side, so they often start to wiggle a bit. But ACM and others have come up with a fix involving using two bushings per pivot.

- Jtoby

Thanks for all of the good info. So it doesn't matter how many washers there are as long as total thickness of the washers stacked together equals 1/2 inch.

After I have the washers in when I get another alignment should I tell them to set the toe to .10 on both tires and show me the camber before they try and change it?

wret · Feb 15, 2005

L2RTSiAWD said:
Since you changed the washer part number how many washers out of the 50 am I going to need? I want to order the bolts and washers as soon as possible.

The 2.5mm washer is conveniently just about 1/10 of an inch. Use 5 per bolt for 1/2" of spacing.

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 15, 2005

wret said:
The 2.5mm washer is conveniently just about 1/10 of an inch. Use 5 per bolt for 1/2" of spacing.

Thanks,

Don't know what I'm going to do with the 17 extra bolts :laugh: but I'm sure they may come in handy for someone.

wret · Feb 15, 2005

Yes, do get an alignment. By my calculations, the half inch of spacing should put your rear camber in the -0.9 to -1.0° ballpark. I'd be interested to know how close the estimate is.

...and yes, have rear toe set as jtoby suggested.

Help two friends fix their rear camber issues with the extra bolts. You'll be an expert.

By the way, here's how to calculate camber correction (jtoby correct me if my constants are off):

Knuckle swing radius =18" (estimated)

18 x 2 x Pi (3.14) / 360 = 1°

= 0.31 inches

Thus the 0.5 inches you will use is about 1.6° of correction.

jtmcinder · Feb 15, 2005

L2RTSiAWD said:
After I have the washers in when I get another alignment should I tell them to set the toe to .10 on both tires and show me the camber before they try and change it?

Yes, especially if it's a shop that will let you interrupt the process to do a bit more work. With 1.75 degrees (on average) in the front, you want to get the rears down to about 1.2 or 1.3. Then have them re-zero the front (or, if they let you pay by axle, leave it alone) and reduce the rear toe to .10 per side. Alternatively, if they won't let you interrupt, adjust the requested rear toe as a function of the camber. If you have 1.3 or less, stay with .10 per side; if you have more (e.g., 1.5), drop the request to .05. I have about 1.75 rear camber, so I run zero toe. Now that my wife is used to the handling, even she likes it the twitchiness.

- Jtoby

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 16, 2005

Thanks again both of you.

I will be ordering the bolts today or tomorrow and then after I get the alignment I ill post the numbers.

They don't let you pay by axle but I think they'll let me work with them as far as setting the toe to where I want it.

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 16, 2005

After I re-read both your posts I'm getting confusing information.

Ron is saying after the adjustment I should have 1.0 to .9 camber in the rear.

Jtoby you are saying that I should have 1.2 to 1.3 in the rear.

Which one is correct? if both correct is either more optimal?

wret · Feb 16, 2005

The difference is my guess for the length of the rear suspension link. From looking at a drawing, I was estimating it was about 18 inches, making 1° of travel about 0.31 inches. I believe JToby's length is a bit longer, and since he may actually have measured it, I would trust his numbers. It would seem he has it at about 24 inches, making 1° of travel about 0.42". Half an inch of spacers should change your camber by 1.2°.

L2RTSiAWD · Feb 16, 2005

OK so then my current 2.5 minus the 1.2 for a half inch of spacers would bring it to the 1.3 spec he recommeded.

Got it.

L2RTSiAWD · May 30, 2005

Well I finally got around to doing the washer mod.

After breaking the first bolt I was uneasy but the rest went fairly smoothly. You defintely need two people. I'm going to get it aliged as soon as possible and post the new numbers. The only thing I'm going to tell them to do is set the toe to zero.

Can someone tell me the tourque spec on those suspension bolts. I want to make sure I have them tightened down enough but I can't seem to find my manual since I moved.

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