Electric Turbochargers!

[ishnish]

So, cruising the net I ran across a very interesting article!

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/electric-turbochargers-forecast-boom-gas-mileage-gains-150005366.html

Now, from this, it's basically concluded that electric turbochargers are going to be way more efficient in power than the traditional turbocharger (will spool wayy faster), and will also help in fuel efficiency as well. This seriously sounds like an awesome concept given the fact that these new hypercars running electric motors have insane amounts of torque and FLY off the line. Wouldn't it be quite interesting if someone implemented this into our dsms? In time guys... Anyways, just looking for some thoughts and opinions on this idea.

Personally, I think the coolest thing about this is since this is an electric setup which doesn't require the plumbing needed for exhaust gases to be routed to the turbine, it frees up a lot of space and that means a cleaner engine bay! I seriously can't think of any cons over this setup! More torque and responsiveness WITH our awd?? Can't imagine the feeling of whiplash that'd give me *droooll*

 

[kchaazz]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Dont do it....

 

[TehRiceBandit]

Electric turbos wouldn't replace traditional turbos altogether though. It's more designed for sequential use to minimize lag until a larger turbo spools up. Would be cool to use with some of the larger holsets, our cars are unreliable enough though

This tech is a ways off before we could put it in our cars

 

[Fullthrottle7]

Cons of setup: Wastes energy that could instead be used in a traditional turbo application appropriately sized for response instead of maximum power. The Volvo example that uses twins and then this electric turbo as a supplement could be OK but the second and potentially worse con is the weight and packaging penalty of including stronger on board batteries that can give off enough current for an electric turbo to be used in a sustained manner. There is no way with today's batteries that this will be a viable performance alternative, instead it will likely be used as some gimmick to boost efficiency in a narrow part of the RPM band so manufacturers can reach the CAFE mandated 50+ MPG fleet average by 2025. If you've been in a hybrid with electric motors that give you up to an 80hp "burst" of power I'm sure you've been as underwhelmed as I have by them and thats what this will become, the SEMA 450hp 4cyl Volvo will be replaced with a much less powerful production model to avoid maintenance costs and warranty claims running an engine on the ragged edge.

The VW GTI's of the mid 2000's had a great compromise and used a 5 valve head that could flow a ton up top combined with a little turbo that spools instantly for a seamless powerband. Ford's new V6 twin turbo trucks are great. We need more of this, smart downsizing not gimmicks in my opinion. Having an electric air pump in the way of the intake tract that is meant to help efficiency giving small bursts of barely pressurized airflow is not going to change how fast a turbo (or turbos) spool(s), and I feel like a well designed and matched traditional turbo system can provide everything consumers and manufacturers need when combined with all of the other new technologies like direct injection, lean burn charges, cylinder deactivation, etc.

Don't mean to be a negative nancy and this is in no way aimed at the OP but I'm so frustrated that the liberal ass hippie government continues to step in to the free market to mandate what consumers want. If I wanted an electric car that only goes 250 miles before needing a 4+ hour recharge I'd buy one. I don't, instead I pay the $4/gal for premium unleaded to get 18mpg combined in my 20 year old turbocharged sports car that I can drive across the country if I desire. I love the technology that manufacturers continue to develop like mentioned above, but forcing them to hit a target number by a certain date is making them take short cuts and kill off the performance mindset in many areas. Its terrible that Mitsubishi doesn't even want to compete in the global auto market and especially in the US anymore due to strict emissions laws and small profit margins so they kill off the DSM and now the EVO and will probly pull the plug completely as they've been threatening after another ten years of producing nothing but econobox commuters. I hope that a huge battery revolution comes at the same time as this electric turbo or we're going to give up all of our performance autos and all end up driving a Prius or a 1.2L electric turbocharged golf cart to work ...

 

[ishnish]

Well I'm definitely loving the opinions and thoughts on this because it opens up my mind more and provides me with more information about different variables to consider. I found more info on this car and how much better it is than its v8 cousin:

"As you might expect with 553 lb-ft arriving at just 1250 rpm, response at tip-in is brisk. From rest, the RS5 TDI charges forward without delay. In a drag race with a gasoline-fueled 553-hp RS6 Avant turbo V-8, the RS5 V-6 TDI held off the more powerful V-8 car for several car lengths. The TDI’s midrange response is also immediate, feeling like a high-performance, naturally aspirated gasoline engine, with none of the laziness and delay typical of turbo-diesels. This RS5 is surprisingly rev-happy, twisting the tach needle all the way to a relatively un-diesel-like 5500 rpm. We estimate the RS5 TDI’s sprint from zero to 60 mph will take about four seconds, with 100 mph arriving in around ten. Top speed is 174 mph, Audi claims. Despite these impressive numbers, the RS5’s 385-hp oil-burner is projected to use less fuel than the 313-hp version of the V-6 TDI it is based on.%0A%0AElectric Supercharger%0AThe key to the RS5 TDI’s performance and efficiency gains is a Valeo-supplied electric supercharger. It is positioned at the "cold side" of the intercooler and, thanks to a low-inertia rotor, capable of reacting within 100 milliseconds and revving to 70,000 rpm. It can blow at full blast independent of engine load and revs. This allows the engine’s twin turbos to be calibrated for maximum boost—up to 49.3 psi—and power. The leap to 385 horsepower at 4200 rpm is solely achieved by the turbos, not by the supercharger. And the TDI’s ample 553 lb-ft of maximum torque is available from 1250 to 2000 rpm. These figures mirror those of BMW's 381-hp, tri-turbo inline-six diesel, which is an impressive engine, but falls far short of this Audi mill in terms of responsiveness.%0AThe electric supercharger requires a separate 48-volt power supply, and the conversion from the 12-volt system adds cost and complexity. Down the road, cost is expected to diminish as more electrical functions are integrated into a common 48-volt system.%0AAudi's own, seven-speed dual-clutch transmission would be the perfect companion for this ultrasporty diesel engine, but it lacks sufficient strength to handle the RS5 TDI’s torque. And so the RS5 TDI is fitted with the ZF 8HP eight-speed automatic, a quick-shifting and efficient unit that has become a benchmark among these types of gearboxes."

 

[mercaholik]

Check out Garretts e-turbo, it's been around for a bit and has an electric motor sandwiched in the chra. So the e motor helps spool then exhaust gases take over. It requires a 36- 48 volt system which is heavy like mentioned. But maybe li-ion batteries and using the turbo e motor as charger during cruise could help.

 

[ishnish]

Check out Garretts e-turbo, it's been around for a bit and has an electric motor sandwiched in the chra. So the e motor helps spool then exhaust gases take over. It requires a 36- 48 volt system which is heavy like mentioned. But maybe li-ion batteries and using the turbo e motor as charger during cruise could help.

Great man! Thank you. I wonder if there are any reviews on it. Haven't searched it up yet but it sounds very interesting. Will look it up when I get the chance.

 

[Mischif]

I read an article a few years ago about an electric turbo concept. Basically its a turbo split in half. The compressor is operated by a heavy duty electric motor and can be mounted where ever you want it. The turbine remains in the exhaust tract and is used as a turbine generator dedicated to the electric turbo. There is also a special battery used to store extra energy which is used to power the compressor whenever the turbine isn't under enough load to generate the required energy. I could see a setup like this making all other forms of forced induction obsolete.

 

[2slow4now]

It's interesting but you would have to store and/or generate the power to run the motor someplace on board. Either a battery bank or a generator. Both would have disadvantages. A chargeable bank would be about the same as having a bottle to help spool bigger turbos. Your limited to how long it will last without a "refill". A generator would have to be powered by something and the likely candidate would be a belt drive off the engine.

Either way I'm sure there would be specific applications that the electric turbo would be ideal for and then others that it would not work at all.

I wonder what kind of air flow numbers they are getting from them?

 

[dugan33]

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relatively related.

 

[dsmcrzy]

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relatively related.

No, not even close. Everyone here already knows those are crap.

The discussion here is hybrid turbos that have electric motors to help spool. Totally different then the crap electric 'superchargers'.

 

[lasthope05]

All this talk about electric turbo/superchargers reminds me of the five leaf blower supercharged Monza.

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[mercaholik]

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This is from my turbo book, there is a bunch of good info.

 

[Mello]

Also you should check out Formula 1 for 2014 season. This is essentially what the new regulation have forced F1 into. F1 no longer refers to motors, they're now called power units because there is a lot of thing associated together, batteries, controllers, electric motors, generators, & the engine.

 

[rough]

I'm seeing the size of the wiring, the extra weight, extra controls, more problems, probably need a way bigger alternator, more issues with the turbo "leaks", and electric motors are not reliable and cause drag when over powered, did I mention the heat they generate??.

Why not just make turbo's dual turbine with a larger and smaller turbine?... Kinda treat it like a carb.. Idle to part throttle uses the super duper small turbine giving instant boost, where as you go over say 35% throttle or a certain rpm where the itty turbine is out flowed, a actuator moves an arm directing air flow to the 16g turbine or w/e.

Using electricity to remove that spool lag is just poor thinking. Until technology and electricity reach a path where it's light weight and wire gauge doesn't matter, it's kind of pointless.. :2cents:

 

[91-GS]

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=111469

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ESC electric supercharger. Uses 600-1200 amps (12 volts, seems like) and gives boost pressure of 20 psi for about 15 seconds at a time before batteries need to be recharged. Good for a motor up to 2.5 liter.
Page also has some info about other ideas.

 

[rough]

50-100 AMPS to run one of these... poor coils![DOUBLEPOST=1415914436][/DOUBLEPOST]Suitable for use on engines up to 2.5 litres, the ESC-400 is capable of 20 psi of boost but - on a stock motor - it is recommended that you don't exceed 5 - 7 psi. Depending on the boost pressure you require, the unit can produce maximum boost for up to 15 seconds. The Eaton roots-type compressor comes rated up to 425hp and delivers up to 405 cfm of airflow at 5.5 psi boost. Note that, like the e-RAM, the ESC-400 supercharger operates only at wide-open throttle.[DOUBLEPOST=1415914481][/DOUBLEPOST]Hang on guys, anyone got some D batteries? My boost died [DOUBLEPOST=1415915196][/DOUBLEPOST]I'd love to see a magnetized turbine / housing. Using a magnetic field lightly powered could do this and then some.
Check out my awesome paint job!

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So the red lines on the turbines would have magnetized cores forged into the turbine blade ends.
The green lines would be 4 magnetic conductors that are insulated expect on the ends by the turbines.
A small brain/cpu would control the pulses of electricity to the conductors to spin the turbine blades without any exhaust.
Having these on both sides will alleviate any stress on the shaft from just one end wanting to twist and giving more magnetic pull to the turbo.

I think this is more ideal then having an electric motor trying to spin this setup. Magnetism rules!

Just an idea.

 

[lasthope05]

A few things that wont work with that. Magnetism is lost with heat and the forces wont be strong enough to actually build any boost. At best, you just made a fan.

They do have variable vane turbos out that effectively changes a/r, but that technology hasnt been fully implemented in the aftermarket performance turbos.

 

[wishihadatalon]

I'm pretty sure this is only a matter of time for OEM applications. I believe Borg Warner just patented a new fully electric turbocharger. I heard something about it not too long ago at work and from some of our product engineers.

 

[rough]

Good point, I wasn't thinking about how much of the magnetic field would be lost to the heat, but I'm sure cooling could be routed to help that.
Turbo's are so much fun!
I wish I had a 3d printer, i'd print one up and test! This is essentially what a fan is, but without the weight, heavy copper coils, and ecu controlled.

Thanks for your feed back Lasthope05

Science is awesome!

 

[mercaholik]

While it is true heat affects magnets they also use huge magnetic fields to retain super hot plasma in crazy reactors. I dont recall off hand the type of reactor, or the metal/materials used but i remember that the plasma was so hot it would melt any existing materials (i guess even the ceramic composites like the tiles on under side of the space shuttle). While that doesn't translate over completely to roughs idea ( i like it and have had a similar thought) there may be new materials that are up to the task, but real expensive. We where taught in school a good way to demagnetize is to "heat it or beat it" but they are making great improvements in metallurgy. Just look at f1 like mello said, and bw new gamma ti is actually better when its hot. Technology is building at geometric rate (just like a turbo ) so in five years who knows.

 

[rough]

Technology is awesome! I know what your talking about! It's called fusion

With us landing on these comets now, we should have a source of new materials, specially magnetic material for use sometime in the near future!

Imagine a rock that's magnetic that's been chilling in -1000's degree temps for millions of years,
being used in every day devices! I wonder if a rock that's been in that stasis for that long would hold it's properties much better then magnetic rocks here that have hit the earth at 1000's of miles an hour burning up in our atmosphere before hitting the ground "heat+impact = loss of magnetism"

 

[mercaholik]

Couldn't recall the differences between fusion and fission so thanks. This is cool taking about science and high tech ideas. Though maybe not the appropriate forum, I like this. So is anyone else thinking how much lighter lithium ion batteries are, and they can be placed low and flat so that helps with weight placement, but there gonna add weight. And complexity but so is everything now a days, computers have the processing power and speed to run them. If garret already has this prototype with vtn and electric assist think about building boost in the line (m/t guys) and not roasting your turbine and housing, manifold etc using anti lag. You can program the electric motor to start and build to set level a set time just before launch. With hopefully only a couple hundred lbs ( ik that's a bit .02 sec) of extra weight but might get better with time just like turbo tech. I'm truly amazed by how much more efficient and reliable from just 15-20 years back. Big part of the breakthroughs have been people on this site, we all give you the props you all deserve.[DOUBLEPOST=1416005164][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh you guys are all on the right ideas check this out, I figured it's easier than typing it all and its verbatim. About Garrett e turbo.

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