420A Slow 420a

[Dennyj1992]

Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong section. Still getting used to the site around here.


Back on subject... I know this has been asked before because I just googled the same question, but why the hell is my 420a so slow? I did find some information here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/slow-420a.378933/ and from there, I did everything that was included in a tune up except for my fuel filter and coil pack (plus wires).

My car is a 1997 Eagle Talon ESi with the automatic, so my problem is the same as the OP's in that thread. My take off from a stand still just flatlines. I can't even spin the tires. So last night I took her out for a cruise down a back road and decided I would try a little test. So I stopped and pulled out my stopwatch. From a stand still (with my overdrive on) I brake launched it right around 2300 RPM (as high as I could get it in an auto) and let her rip from there. Nice pull between 4-6k or so, but it still felt too slow. So anyways, I ended up FINALLY hitting 60 mph, and as soon as I did, I hit stop on the stopwatch. 13.9! I mean c'mon! I know the auto's are slow and even worse is that the torque curve is all mid-top range power but that's slower than my grandma's 99 Saturn SL1 automatic, !

Here are some troubled problems that could be causing it:

Front end tie rod ends are getting a little worn.
The muffler is rusting on the inside and sounds a little loud.
My O/D was on.
The bend pipe from the exhaust manifold down to the exhaust under the car is rusting and has a hole in the top. It's getting louder by the day. I had the exhaust re-welded all the way back from the where the catalytic converter should be (it was removed and the car was straight piped) with brand new exhaust pipe. One spot he didn't weld quite right, so it needs to be gone over again quickly. It's a very thin, small leak.
Coil packs are older and I'm not sure about the fuel filter.
CEL is ON. I unplug the battery and it shuts off for a few days, then comes back on at random. O2 sensor maybe?

Mods and tune up:

New plugs
Seafoam through the crank, gas and compression lines. Nice smoke show!
Oil change right after. 5w-30 with Lucas oil stabilizer.
Warm Air Intake w/ cone filter
Spare tire and board from the trunk removed.

Sorry for the long read, I just want to make sure I'm including all the info needed to better diagnose the problem here. Thanks guys, I really appreciate any input and help received.

 

[darknezz7]

You didn't mention how many miles on the car... Those transmissions are not very good to start and anything over 150k miles its going to have more slip. My friends spyder auto would have a whole 1500rpm difference when letting off the gas then pushing on it. I told him his trans was on the way out, few months later it did, then I showed him in a manual car how when in a gear and you let off the gas and stomp back on it there is no change in rpms.

Anyway, my 420a manual was slow too, it could chirp the tires but then fell on its face, probably 11sec 0-60.

My advice sell it and get a real dsm or a different car if you want fast. Or full rebuild and manual swap and youll have a stock neon again.

The tie rods and exhaust dont have to do with it.

Go to autozone or oreillys and get the cel scanned for free. Might be trying to tell you something that is affecting performance.

Also, have you done a compression test to see the health of the motor?

 

[Dennyj1992]

Thanks for the quick response darknezz. As soon as I walked out the door to go pick up my wife (after posting this an hour ago) I remembered that I had forgotten to add the mileage in, .

Right now, it sits at 142,000. I literally just rolled it over to that. Yes, I did do a compression test. From left to right facing the engine. 170, 165, 172, 178. All cylinders seemed to be still firing quite well.

"Sighs" I'll have to probably tell you and another 100 people this, then another 100 people more. I don't have the money to go and sell this car and buy a TSi or GS-X or anything turbo right now. My wife and I are saving for a house, so basic maintenance and upkeep is key. It's all we can afford at this moment in life.

I'm not interested in a race car, these results just show me that something is off. I don't mind not having the fastest car in town, (the car itself is a great looker anyhow) it just worries me on how slow the thing moves. If I ever need to get out of traffic's way and what not. I'm sorry, there is no way a car with 140 bhp at 2700 pounds goes 0-60 in 14 seconds, auto or not... In fact, after looking up some specs with a manual ESi brand new, they should be sprinting from a dig to 60 mph in right around 9 seconds. That's with a driver that doesn't know the car better than you or I. Your telling me that an automatic is 5 seconds slower than the manual? No way possible.

Here's another thought. Wouldn't exhaust leaks cause issues with back pressure from the engine, since it's N/T???

 

[darknezz7]

Yeah the exhaust leak would cause small issues and mess with the o2 sensors, but I do not think bad enough to cause that. Good idea to get it fixed though and sound better. Try some lucus fuel conditioner in the gas I always had good results with it cleaning injectors and valves.

I think you should def change fuel filter as that can cause bogging problems for sure.

Also did you clean out the throttle body good and make sure the cable is adjusted right?

So 9 second new, ad 2 sec for being old, 3 seconds loss for a slipping auto would not be impossible. Personally I don't trust a auto's period, everyone has gone out on me, you would get a good improvement by doing a manual swap which you could probably get all the parts for under $400.

Get the code scanned for free and see what it says.

Oh and do you know if the timing belt was changed? If it was not its waaay past due, should be changed twice now. Get that done or you might suddenly have no motor...

 

[Dennyj1992]

I'm thinking about just taking care of the exhaust and suspension right now. What else besides the fuel filter could I do to free the car up a little bit of power?

As stated earlier, I did remove the tire and back board above that for some small weight removal. My A/C doesn't work, so I could probably pull the condenser and lines, but the bolts are hard to get at, .

No, I didn't clean the TB out yet, which I should...that's always easy car care. Where is the fuel filter located? On a fuel rail outside of the tank, right? Also, how do I go about adjusting the cable? Any links to youtube videos for that?

I had a 1996 Z24, 2.4 auto w/OD. Almost 200k miles on it, and the auto was supposed to run 0-60 in 8.5 stock. I ran it 8.3 0-60 consistently. Age is only a matter of wear on the transmission and engine. If the engine still has good compression and the transmission isn't worn to all hell, how would I be losing seconds of time? Seems a little crazy to me? Also, darknezz, how did you know my transmission was slipping? I didn't say anything about it, .

It only slips about 100-200 RPM when dropping into OD. Only in certain points of accelerating though. Previous owner must of did the whole pushing out the OD button and then flooring it deal, several times to wear it down like that?

Forget to mention that the valve stem seals or something is leaking about a quart of oil every 3 weeks or so. The car smokes blue out the exhaust, only after it's been warmed up though. No worn rings here, since compression is good.

 

[darknezz7]

Yeah my 420a burned oil and started smoking too, sold it and 3 weeks later it lost compression. It had like 250k miles though.

Fuel filter should be on firewall( on turbo cars), follow the inlet line on the rail to find it, if not its by the tank.

weight removal should not be part of your concern.

clean the throttle body well, around the edge of the butterfly valve and where it seats. you can type in youtube plenty of vids.

at the throttle body where the cable hooks to it there is some bolts, check the slack on the wire cable, if any adjust to lightly tensioned, also have someone put the pedal to the floor and then see if you can open the throttle any more at the body.


all autos slip more than manuals, you have more drive train loss with a stock auto than a manual. they wear more and slip, a clutch is simple, auto rebuild is not.

a few hundred is not bad though, his literally was 1000-1500 on the freeway and was just not right, then started smelling burned clutch packs and it went to hell.

you can safely do a drain and filter change if you didn't already.

 

[Dennyj1992]

Let me try to make sure I'm hitting all your questions here, haha.

It does smoke blue and burn some oil, along with a small leak. Doesn't seem like it's lost any compression, and the test I did on the cylinders tells otherwise.

Thanks for the info on the fuel filter. I'll take a look here soon and see if I can change it myself. I've done a few in the past and they are generally easy to get at.

Only weight removal (as said before) was the tire and board in the back. Maybe a whole 30 pounds. The car jack wasn't even back there, .

I'll clean the TB soon. I just need to go pick up some carb and choke cleaner.

The way the transmission slips is when it goes from shifting into overdrive. If I let off the gas right as it's about to shift, however, it doesn't slip. Drops into gear fine. If I hold down the gas while it's shifting, the RPM's will jump 100-200, depending on how much gas I am giving it. At this point in it's life, I would be concerned about changing out the transmission fluid though. I've had (and seen) a couple of cars, where after changing the tranny pan gasket and clean fluid, the new fluid (being a detergent and corrosive) would eat old gunk out of the transmission that was still holding it together. After bolting the pan back and place, it would then be a matter of praying and hoping. If the fluid was old and burnt, the transmission had already taken too much damage, the slipping would then get WORSE, or even further, it would ruin the tranny altogether. Wouldn't you think that 142k would be TOO many miles to change it now? Or should I take the risk?

 

[xcasbonx]

Bottom line if you're looking to go fast and have the A604 (auto) trans especially with a 420a, it's just not a likely scenario. The high mileage also compounds the scenario.

I burned up my auto trans shortly after my motor build was done and ended up swapping my motor into a chassis with a manual transmission. A lot of things fell into the right circumstances for that to happen. When it was done though I couldn't believe the NIGHT and DAY difference between auto and manual. You could always do a manual swap if you are that serious about it.

As for changing the fluid and filter in it, that's up to you. There may be *some* truth to the old addage that new fluid at this stage in the transmissions life could be harmful, but every car is different.

 

[Dennyj1992]

Hehe, sounds good. Thanks for jumping n casbonx.

I'm just so stumped as to why they would make a car look so quick, when it's such a dog, .

 

[xcasbonx]

Believe it or not when these cars are maintained properly and in good working order you can average 35-38 MPG on the highway.

 

[Dennyj1992]

Yep, I'm still getting right around 35 on the highway. I just wish it would pick up a little quicker. I was hoping to be able to get her in the 0-60 in 9 second range. Not impossible with an auto...