E85 goo - this time with an attitude

[DSMReviver]

Its only happens in metal tips, that tells me something. The e85 and or the impurities are converted to this goo with metals. They don't see this stuff in paper filters(but you cant continuously use paper filters in e85). Majority of dsm injectors are metal tip.

 

[Calan]

Its only happens in metal tips, that tells me something.

You must have missed my pic of the plastic fuel pump sock in the first post.

 

[talondsp1]

I have a single injector and connector.

 

[DSMReviver]

You must have missed my pic of the plastic fuel pump sock in the first post.

Was there a metal underneath that plastic fuel pump sock? I thought i saw something shiny underneath. im just asking.

 

[Calan]

I have a single injector and connector.

Cool. I'll call you later tonight or tomorrow.

Was there a metal underneath that plastic fuel pump sock? I thought i saw something shiny underneath. im just asking.

It's just a standard pump sock. To the best of my knowledge, they are just a plastic frame covered by a nylon-like mesh filter. I've never noticed any metal in them at all.

 

[tominatortwo]

Your fuel system is not E-85 compatible.

 

[Calan]

Your fuel system is not E-85 compatible.

It's not? Well that must be what the problem is then. I can't believe we're up to 82 posts in this thread, and none of us have thought of that yet.

Thanks for popping in and clearing it up for us.

 

[tominatortwo]

I don't believe the fuel tanks plastic material in DSM's is made to handle E-85.
I could be wrong?

If not:

Switch to a Stainless Steel, plastic made to handle E-85 or a metal tank coated with epoxy.

Plus the rubber o-rings for the injectors need to be switched out for neoprene o-rings.

 

[abaum565]

I don't believe the fuel tanks plastic material in DSM's is made to handle E-85.

Switch to a Stainless Steel, plastic made to handle E-85 or a metal tank coated with epoxy.

 

[tominatortwo]

Something to consider.
There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel.

 

[Calan]

Something to consider.
There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel.

Interesting. So I have a couple of questions:

1. Which part of my fuel system isn't compatible?

2. Why have several people with basically stock DSM fuel systems been able to run E85 for 4 years or more with no issues at all?

3. How long would it take for a problem to appear?

4. Could my fuel pump be the problem?

Switch to ... a metal tank coated with epoxy

I personally think the "goo" is coming from the coating that is in the tank.

How about you guys go fight it out somewhere, and I'll continue to go with what the chemists have said about the goo.

 

[forcefed86]

I've had a few dealings with this and they were gas station specific (almost always "blender" stations). Haven't had a problem with either of my e85 cars on the straight pump e85 stations.

I've also found toluene tears through that black goo even faster than gasoline. I run a gallon or so through every month... Doesn't hurt the octane either!

I run a "golden rod" canister type filter from tractor supply. They are cheap ($24, $8 replacements) and hold up great in e85. They have a much larger surface area than those tiny SS mesh type filters so they do not "clog" easily. Not to mention they filter down to 5-10 microns. I also use these inline with my turbo oil supply with great success. After over a year in e85 I did notice some of the adhesive in the filter was brittle when I cut it open. But I change them every winter now anyway.

Good luck I'll be very interested in your findings!


Dutton-Lainson® Goldenrod® 595 Spin-On Fuel Filter - 3958383 | Tractor Supply Company

 

[Calan]

I've had a few dealings with this and they were gas station specific (almost always "blender" stations). Haven't had a problem with either of my e85 cars on the straight pump e85 stations.

That's interesting. The station we use is a blender station.

I may also have to check out those filters if I have any more issues. Thanks for the info on them.

 

[EvilTSi_97]

That's interesting. The station we use is a blender station.

I may also have to check out those filters if I have any more issues. Thanks for the info on them.

I still think you should try getting some from the MWC gas station on a fill up, perhaps take a sample from each station, add that Stabil in there and let it sit and see what kind of results you can get. Now, I don't want to come over and see some "Bill Nye The Science Guy" stuff in your garage, with tubes hooked up everywhere going to all kinds of different fuels....

 

[Calan]

Now, I don't want to come over and see some "Bill Nye The Science Guy" stuff in your garage, with tubes hooked up everywhere going to all kinds of different fuels....

Why not?

That sounds like fun, with lots of opportunity for loud noises and flames.

******

I've got just about everything I need for my miniature fuel system except for a tank of some type. I'm thinking of using a small aquarium, if I can figure out how to seal it and make it explosion proof. I'm not real excited about the thought of burning glass flying around my garage at high rates of speed.

 

[Calan]

Ok... I've got some tests going.

I cut up some pieces of my SS hose and have them soaking in acetone, E85+Sta-bil, pure 91, and methanol. I also have a piece of stock fuel line in E85+Sta-bil. After soaking for about 12 hours so far and some vigorous shaking, there is no sign of any contamination whatsoever in any of the jars.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I also rigged up a test jar with a Walbro 255 and a piece of stock fuel hose. I'm running it with a sample of the same E85+Sta-bil that I drained from the tank right after I discovered this massive goo outbreak. (The sock just looks dark because of the way the filter sits on the framework. I ran two jars of clean 91 through it and then drained and dried out the pump before starting the test, to make sure the sock and pump were clean...and this pump was never run with that crap ^).

Here is the test jar:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

And here it is running:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I think I occasionally see something black floating around, but it's too soon to jump to any conclusions. I'll let it run until the rain moves back in and I have to shut it down, and post any updates when possible.

 

[MidShipCivic]

Poke a hole in the top of each lid they're suppose to be vented just like your fuel tank and place them outside where sunlight can heat them up.

 

[Calan]

Yeah...I loosened the lids and placed them outside. The boss wouldn't have let me keep them on the kitchen table other than to shoot pics.

Sunlight won't be an option for a couple of days though.

 

[urmomsaniceguy]

I'm not sure if you would be willing to try but maybe use your other fuel pump. Maybe the stabil is causing a problems with you new pump.

 

[Calan]

I really don't think I will see the problem show up in the jar no matter what pump I use. It's probably a combination of several things (pressure, temperature, different volume out of the pump, etc) that caused the stuff to crash out of solution.

We'll see...

Great username BTW.

 

[urmomsaniceguy]

I was just wondering I'd the pressure difference in the pumps at higher rates of voltage would have caused it in the new pump vs the wally 255. It was one of the difference factors. Plus the addition of stabil.

 

[Calan]

As I'm watching this test run and checking things out, I'm wondering if the higher voltage raised the temperature of the pump (and thus the fuel) to some critical point where the stuff cooked out. That jar is pretty damn warm at 12v since there isn't much fuel to absorb and dissipate the heat. I did find the greatest concentration of the goo on and around the pump, where the fuel temperature would have been the highest.

That would also explain why it is normally found at the injector tips sitting in the head. It's even possible that the injector port design on our heads run hotter than other cars, thus explaining why it shows up more on DSMs.

 

[urmomsaniceguy]

Could it be that your bigger pump at 15 v is producing higher temps? And the stabil is worsening the effects?

 

[forcefed86]

Nice science project you got there! We all appreciate the effort!

I have had the same issues on my 3.8 v6. And so have many others in the E85 Grand National community. One of my good friends has had a factory paper buick fuel filter and SS mesh soaking (sealed) in e85 for 3-4 years now and there is no sign of any contamination.

I noticed build-up was worse with the delphi disc injectors and much less so on my new 120lb pintle style. I'm guessing the disc type injectors break down the fuel into a finer mist possibly? Making this goo easier to "grow".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oTirEZNRw8

Maybe you could hook up an injector on one of those test jars as well? I've seen people use hazard blinkers to pulse the injectors. Hook it up to a battery charger and let that sucker run for a few weeks.


I run a ProTuner 750 Inline on the race car. Fuel temps could be a big part of it. If I run my car for more than 30-40 mins my fuel gets pretty warm. With a half tank and 40 minute drive I was seeing 110* fuel temps on a 65* night. This is with a -8 supply and a -6 return.

Many of us (myself included) still run the factory returns and feeds on the DSM's. I still run the factory filter as well. I'm sure this contributes to alot of heat build up. Not to mention silly head pressures fuel system pressures we all run with e85.

 

[m_0ney_pit]

nice, remember just because you can't physically see the particles in solution yet doesn't mean you aren't generating any.
A good way to check this is to take a laser pointer and shine it into the solution, the scattering effects will make the particles look white to your eye almost like a mist if there is any yet.