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2G Fuel system upgrade with stock fuel tank for high horsepower. Pics inside!

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God yall are givin this guy a hard time :cry:
im really not trying be hard on the guy. I was just explaining what I was told by our rep at magnafuel when I ordered mine. and his situation could be different since he has the y setup. I just don't want to see him have issues
 
@v8s_are_slow Ya I wanna apologize too if I was coming off like a Dick. Honestly, thanks for sharing man this is what the forums all about. And really it is a clean install you did.

I was just discussing one of the downfalls of the two sumps. But what we all need to keep in mind is that your setup is still going to WORK just the way it is. And it will probably be more than you need in most situations. There are just a couple drawbacks that keep it from being all it could be and that is what we are discussing here.

So its back to the vacuum basics again with the line size. Are your -8AN lines in and out going to function fine as they are? Yes. But as the other guys are saying, in general no matter what pump you are using, to get the most flow you should always be using a larger hose on the suction side then you are on the pressure side. On the suction side under perfect vacuum you have a max of 14.7 psi pushing fluid to the pump from the tank. You never get perfect vacuum so with a decent positive displacement pump like the magnafuel, the pressure is going to be more like 10 psi. At low pressure like this you do not get as much fluid velocity through the tube as you do on the output side. On the output side since you have about 4 times the pressure the flow velocity is much higher so over the same period of time you can get more volume through the tube.

What this boils down to numbers wise is that on suction you are going to get about 5 fps velocity of fuel through the tube. On the pressure side more like 15 fps velocity. So with an -8AN on the pressure side at MAX FLOW, you will need at least a -12AN on the suction side to be able to keep up with the pressure side.

So with your system the -8AN suction side between the Y and the pump is the limiting factor. It will probably be plenty for your needs. And if you ever come up short on fuel you already have an -8AN pressure line so you will only have to upgrade that one line.
 
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I think the y will cause cavitation. I would have just pulled off one side of the tank, then left a stock pump in the tank, and had it pump fuel to the side the pickup is on.

I agree though it really looks like the 2g is a shit situation for pumps. I'm thinking I would just connect your 2 beans sumps together, this will keep equal fuel in each side.

Then what I would do is make a pickup that goes in the stock fuel sender and points toward the rear of the tank. There are some pictures of mine in my build thread.

I worry that your long suction side lines will cause issues, even besides the y fitting. You don't have to have an interruption in fuel flow to have cavitation in a pump. Them high dollar mega flow pumps don't live well under those conditions either.


How much power are you planning on making?
 
I wasn't really posting in here much and usually just do it on Facebook, buuuut I was personally asked by Ludachris to do some write-ups for the community. So I accepted because I DO try to help people a lot. Honesy, I just get tired of the forum stuff when I'm trying to research something and all I see is bickering. I don't have have time for that stupid childish crap. If people wanna give opinions, fine. But when people are telling me I didn't do research, or telling me this and that won't work, I take offense to that cause I don't see anyone else doing it, and sometimes you just have to get off your butt and do it to experiment. Trust me, I researched the living heck out of things. I never once said in this thread that this is the end all, resolve all solutions for everyone out there. Hell, the car isn't even running yet. I'm posting up what I'M doing currently. It works or it won't. I don't need to be told I haven't done my research or I'm doing something wrong. If someone has useful ideas, post away. Otherwise I'll just shut up and let y'all have it it.

I've actually thought about having a pump going from the driver's side of the tank to put the fuel back over to the passenger side. Except that there will be a lot of times that the pump will be ran dry and feel the pump may not last long that way, as well as get hot because of no fuel to keep it cool. So that's the reason I've thrown that idea out the window.

I also don't go making hard turns with this car. When driven around town, I drive slow unless in a straight line on a private road. This isn't a road course kind of car. I also don't go running it on empty very often either. Let it be said that I take ideas to heart and regardless of the current setup, I'm STILL looking for a good way to make sure one side doesn't run out of fuel and suck up air. Maybe it won't even happen but if the possibility is there, I want to prevent it. So if people have ideas on how to better my setup, post away (doesn't mean I'll implement it, or maybe not right away). Otherwise, all you negative Nancy's out there need to post elsewhere. Thank you! End rant....
 
I think the y will cause cavitation. I would have just pulled off one side of the tank, then left a stock pump in the tank, and had it pump fuel to the side the pickup is on.

I agree though it really looks like the 2g is a sh** situation for pumps. I'm thinking I would just connect your 2 beans sumps together, this will keep equal fuel in each side.

Then what I would do is make a pickup that goes in the stock fuel sender and points toward the rear of the tank. There are some pictures of mine in my build thread.

I worry that your long suction side lines will cause issues, even besides the y fitting. You don't have to have an interruption in fuel flow to have cavitation in a pump. Them high dollar mega flow pumps don't live well under those conditions either.


How much power are you planning on making?

With the driveshaft there, I can't really connect the sumps together. Dunno if you saw my video oo not but my "original" plan was to run the lines under the subframe and bolt a clamp there and feel that would've worked great, except that if either of the axles break it'll take out the line. So I reluctantly ran the lines over the top of the subframe. Not how I really wanted to do it, but it's the best I could personally come up with. At least for now anyway. I will say that pressure comes on quick though.

As for how much power? As much power as I can possibly make on a Dsm86 turbo (aka, 3586).
 
I think the y will cause cavitation. I would have just pulled off one side of the tank, then left a stock pump in the tank, and had it pump fuel to the side the pickup is on.

I agree though it really looks like the 2g is a sh** situation for pumps. I'm thinking I would just connect your 2 beans sumps together, this will keep equal fuel in each side.

Then what I would do is make a pickup that goes in the stock fuel sender and points toward the rear of the tank. There are some pictures of mine in my build thread.

I worry that your long suction side lines will cause issues, even besides the y fitting. You don't have to have an interruption in fuel flow to have cavitation in a pump. Them high dollar mega flow pumps don't live well under those conditions either.


How much power are you planning on making?

Bastard as always with an excellent point about cavitation. What I was talking about earlier with not being able to reach perfect vacuum, well that can be the big down side to having to small or too long of a suction line. Once you start to approach that high point of vacuum in the suction tube the pump will create bubbles of empty space in the fluid as its rotating. When these bubbles collapse it sends a pressure wave through the fluid and contacts the pump rotating group. Just like detonation on a piston it will start showing little pits everywhere and eventually it won't pump at all if it goes on long enough.

Just listen to the pump when you fire this thing up. Cavitation is a fairly loud and distinct noise. Different than the whine of the motor. More like growling. Might be hard to hear with the exhaust. I don't think you will have a problem though. They are long but not that long.

I really like his idea of connecting the two sumps together to even out the tank. Really similar to how they do a lot of motorcycle tanks. Solves the whole problem of keeping the fuel on one side or another, especially if you don't take corners hard. You could run the hose rearward as long as you don't route it upward at all if your worried about clearing the driveshaft.
 
I've actually thought about having a pump going from the driver's side of the tank to put the fuel back over to the passenger side. Except that there will be a lot of times that the pump will be ran dry and feel the pump may not last long that way, as well as get hot because of no fuel to keep it cool. So that's the reason I've thrown that idea out the window.

I also don't go making hard turns with this car. When driven around town, I drive slow unless in a straight line on a private road. This isn't a road course kind of car. I also don't go running it on empty very often either.

If you have the return from the rail ran to the drivers side of the tank, your transfer pump should have fuel pretty much all the time I would think. Especially keeping it above a half tank.
I don't do any hard turning either, shifting is when I get the most slosh. I have a cell that's sumped in the rear and still once it gets much below half the pump will starve on hard shifts. I really need baffling to keep the fuel down in the sump or something.
I used to have two -8's into a y before but they y'd to a -12. Just did away with that to a single -12 to eliminate potential leaks.
 
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As for how much power? As much power as I can possibly make on a Dsm86 turbo (aka, 3586).

one question I have for you is about the regulator. what fuel lab regulator were you running? im just curious about the pressure issues that you mentioned as I have a fuel lab regulator and the same pump
 
Honestly if you cant take criticism thats your problem not ours. You made an overly unnecessary and complicated system for your goals. Where dual 340 or single 450 + BAP would of worked. We know and see whats wrong with your setup. You need to learn to admit your system doesnt work and stop trying to argue with the people telling you whats wrong with it and the corrections you need to make.

K.I.S.S Method(keep is simple stupid)

Imitating the stock system would have sufficed and solved all of problems and flaws with your current setup. One sump on pump side only, with recommended -10/-12 inlet feed, to the 4304 and -8 to rail. Then make a larger ventrui/syphon tube inline with the larger aftermarket return. Something as simple as a 1/2"(or whatever size return line) steel tube with a 3/16"-1/4" brake line welded to the side to make a "Y". This will draw fuel through the venturi effect, like stock, and transfer fuel over to the other side.

There you go. No need for a stupid second sump and "Y" fitting that draws in air. No need for a second lift pump to transfer to the passenger side. Thats all you need to do.

And you're welcome!
 
one question I have for you is about the regulator. what fuel lab regulator were you running? im just curious about the pressure issues that you mentioned as I have a fuel lab regulator and the same pump

This is what I had originally purchased. When speaking with Kevin Jewer he said the orifice is too small for the return and would keep the pressure too high. I could've kept the regulator to see what would happen but I really didn't feel like screwing around so I just replaced everything in the fuel system except for the injectors because they were already fairly new anyway.

https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=21505&cat=310&page=2
 
This is what I had originally purchased. When speaking with Kevin Jewer he said the orifice is too small for the return and would keep the pressure too high. I could've kept the regulator to see what would happen but I really didn't feel like screwing around so I just replaced everything in the fuel system except for the injectors because they were already fairly new anyway.

https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=21505&cat=310&page=2
hmmm.. ill have to keep an eye on mine. I got my base pressure set ok but now im kinda concerned about pressure once I put a load on the car LOL
 
Someone mentioned using a pump to pump fuel to the passenger side of the tank. I can't remember if it was the same person or another person who mentioned returning it to the driver's side of the tank. But I like the idea after I started thinking how to make it work. I probably won't do it right away but I'll get it implemented and should solve ANY issue of this sucking up air, etc. I'll also run -10 AN from the tank, to filter, and then drop it down to -8 AN at the pump and go -8 AN the rest of the way. The black square to the right of the drawing would be the additional pump. The bigger blue box would be the main pump. The two smaller boxes would be the filters. I can't see how anyone could complain about this idea.

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Finally up and running but have some stuff to sort out. Still gonna change the lines around when I get to it. But this is where I'm at currently. Probably gonna get some standoffs to kill the noise.
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Finally up and running but have some stuff to sort out. Still gonna change the lines around when I get to it. But this is where I'm at currently. Probably gonna get some standoffs to kill the noise.
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sounds good man:thumb: those standoffs work wonders in killing the pump harmonics (at least they did with mine mounted to my homebuilt cell).
 
I haven't "yet". Need to figure out a good external pump for that to pump fuel to the other side of the tank. For now I just have 2 sumps Y'd together to the one Magnafuel pump. It's on my to-do list though.
 
So to start with, I'm putting this thread here because people are gonna be asking questions or make comments I'm sure. Just don't know if people can do that in tech articles and I wanna be as open as I can about this.

So anyway, my Walbro 450 just wasn't getting the job done for me. Sure, you can punch the relief, you can get a boost-a-pump to increase the voltage which boost the output, etc., but those are things that I just don't feel comfortable with having to do, and I'm trying to put down a good amount of power. For 1g guys, they have it easy. They have a metal tank which can be modified, and the pump is already near the rear and all. 2g guys? Well, our options are limited when it comes to "good" fuel tank and fuel supply options. Sure, you can get a Fullblown, dual pump setup that drops into the stock tank but I don't like that idea. All the fuel sloshes to the back if you're launching hard and the pumps are in the front, trying to suck it up and out of the tank. STUPID Mitsubishi engineers who thought this was a good design!!!! Frontline "was" making a fuel cell but don't think they do anymore and there's just not really anyone out there doing it and not a large market for it. You could go with a Mechanical pump and buy a surge tank. But I don't really have any room behind my front bumper to mount one, no room in my engine bay, and certainly don't want it in my car where it would be bad if I were ever to get into an accident. The stock tank really limits good fuel options for awd 2g cars. You can't weld on the tank. The saddle design means you have to get fuel out of both sides, and it was really racking my brain.

So my good buddy Mike Lester from Buschur Racing and I were talking over this issue I was having and the thoughts I had in mind when he mentioned a Beans Diesel fuel sump. I was like, "what???" If you haven't heard of it (I never had), it's something the diesel guys use (duh, right?). It instantly clicked in my head and a light bulb went off. It solved my issues that I was facing and all of the debating I was having about what system to go with. Keep in mind that I have yet to put it into use yet, but I'm doing the write-up anyway. Using this piece sent from heaven above, I was able to use the stock tank, pull fuel from the bottom, and opened a HUGE door for fueling options because now I can use any pump I want, no surge tank needed, etc. I purchased called up Beans Diesel and had a talk with them about my plans and the price concern because I would need 2 of them and that alone would've been $300. He mentioned they had a mini version for just $50 a piece and after the install, the regular size might have been too large anyway. But saved $200 right there. Cha-ching!!! The tax God blessed my bank account and parts ordering came under way. P.S. I'll try and post links at some point for every part I purchased as well. So let me stop yapping and start posting some parts porn.

New parts. Yay!!!
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This is the jewel that makes more fueling options possible.
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Installation video but keeping mind this is for the original size sump. Mine didn't come with a hole saw, but I already had the size I needed which was a 1" I believe if I remember correctly.
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I decided to scrap the metal fuel tank cover because after pulling it down some, I realized the tank wasn't completely flat on the bottom and if you drill in the wrong spot, you've just ruined a completely good fuel tank, and thus ruining your day. I also used a cordless drill for this because I had fuel still in my tank and didn't wanna chance it with electricity going through the drill and my E85 fuel. No thanks. This was a 3" hole, and was then going to drill my 1" hole for the sump, when I realized how hard it was to get the metal hole right where I needed it, not to mention I needed to avoid hitting the straps that hold the tank in there.
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Goodbye metal fuel tank cover. PLEASE be careful if you cut it out like I did. You're cutting around a fuel tank. I took proper safety precautions, that probably didn't do much for me anyway and God just spared my life for the sole purpose of this post.
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Bottom of the fuel tank. See? Not completely flat. Best spot I could find was around the middle of the tank towards the outer edge for each side. I wanted to use a spot all the way in the back but this is by far better than having a pump pulling from the top, and near the front.
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Hole drilled on one side. Tank is actually pretty thick on the bottom. I also filed the edges and got any of the crap out of the inside of the tank. I drilled VERY slowly when it felt like it was getting close to going all the way through because I didn't wanna fling plastic pieces everywhere inside the tank. This is obviously better to be done with the tank pulled out as well. Hopefully everyone is smart enough to know why.
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The piece I cut out to give you guys an idea of how thick the tank actually is.
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Sump installed on one side. Keep in mind that I didn't use the fitting that came with the sump. I purchased an AN fitting 3/8th on the sump side and -8 AN for the lines. Make sure everything is clean before you install it so the rubber o-ring doesn't start leaking. Also being careful not to bind up the o-ring and make sure it's completely flat against the tank before torquing it all down.
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Closer view.
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Here's an idea of where it sits in relation to the back tires because a lot of people on Facebook seemed to be concerned about it getting hit on something under the car being that my car is fairly low. Would be pretty difficult though because of the proximity to the tires. Not in the middle of the car where a speed bump or something would easily get it. Keep in mind that I don't drive mine much on the street though and avoid speed bumps at all cost anyway.
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Here's a look from the rear, with the -8 AN lines installed. They go up and over the rear subframe, Y together, and then to the pump. There was a hole where I could've mounted a clamp under the subframe but I didn't feel comfortable about it because it would've been under the axle and if the axle broke, I didn't want it taking out my fuel line. Pardon my not so pretty rear diff and axles. Was an awd swap with parts from a 95 that weren't the prettiest but it gets the job done.
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This is where the two fuel lines Y in together after coming up and over the subframe. I drilled holes and mounted the clamps on the driver's side of the spare tire wheel well.
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And another view. The swaybar looked like it was meant to be bent in that area. The fuel line tucked nicely under it. I drilled a hole and clamped the fuel line to the bottom of the rear subframe because I wasn't exactly sure how much the swaybar would move and I didn't want it rubbing against the line over time. From there it goes to the first fuel filter which I mounted to the front of the spare tire wheel well.
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New fuel pump compared to my Walbro 450 pump. This is a Magnafuel 4303, external pump. I believe the largest external pump that you can buy without a controller. Or so I've read anyway.
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Pump mounted on the passenger side of the spare tire wheel well. Then from there it goes to the after filter, which then goes back up and over the rear subframe, around the side of the fuel tank, and up to the front of the car. Prefilter to the bottom left of the picture. Had to cut all the lines and install the fittings to get them routed to where I needed them. Tried getting a few different angles for you guys.
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Good view of the pump and where I drilled for grommets and ran the wiring through to the inside of the car.
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Ran the 10 gauge power wire up along side the wires for my battery relocation wiring, and up to the relay for the fuel pump rewire. If you look closely, you can see where the ground wire comes in and goes to the negative terminal of the battery through the battery box.
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Annnd to the front. I have it coming into the rail, from there I have an AN fitting to allow me to screw in my fuel pressure sending unit so I can log fuel pressure, and then u-turn and back to the regulator. Now I've heard that my placement for my regulator might not pass tech at the track. They're not strict about it around here and honestly, all I do is test and tune anyway. I HATE bracket racing. Just enjoy going fast and doing heads up racing. Y'all do what y'all want. But also too, the intake manifold being as large as it is makes it hard to mount closer.
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Very cool thread!
 
So I just wanted to update this post being that I was at the track a couple of weeks ago. Had a bunch of issues I had to sort out while there and transmission's 2nd gear syncro being one of those I'm about to have to fix (Fun fun).

Anyway, before going to the track I had to fix my fuel level gauge which I was successful in doing but not 100% sure how accurate my needle placement is on that gauge yet because I had to take the needle off and put it back on so I could keep the faceplate I had and swapped the gauge to make sure it wasn't simply a gauge issue. So I could be off on my estimate on how much fuel I had in the tank. But I went racing on a Friday with plenty of issues and 3/4 of a tank. Back the next day to try and see if I sorted the issues out. While sitting in the staging lanes on the last run of the day, my pump started getting high pitched periodically.

As a side note I'll mention that while this pump is on the louder side, I've already gotten use to it and actually prefer it because if there's ANY issues with fuel delivery to the pump, it's screaming at me to let me know, unlike other intank pumps where you might not be so lucky. It seems as though the driver's side of the tank is getting drained faster than the passenger side due to how I have the lines routed. This probably could've been prevented had I only been able to Y in the lines below the tank. But being that it would involve going under the axles to do this, I chose to go up and over the rear subframe and Y behind it on the other side. Therefore the fuel level probably can't level out, thus draining one side faster than the other. It started giving me this issue at around 1/4 of a tank on my gauge but I realize that there's 2 sending units and if one is higher than the other, the actual amount might be off, but at least the gauge is telling me where the problem would begin to start.

Anyway, first chance I get, I'm going to reroute the lines as in the diagram I have posted above. But I'm not sure what pump would be good for this just yet. It'll be a tight spot and I'll need a -6 fitting on each side of the pump. I have plenty of -6 line, but just need to figure out the pump to use, placement, and then get -10 line for the single feed side from the passenger side to the pump. I believe this will fix my issue. Hope this update helps.

I will say that the Walbro 450 pump seriously let me down and I couldn't deliver enough fuel if my life depended on it and maxed out at around 23-24 psi of boost. Anymore than that and it'd go lean. With this Magna fuel pump, I'm at 50 psi of base pressure at the moment and duty cycle got no more than 53% at 35 psi of boost. So other than that, I'm rather pleased with it at the moment.
 
As a side note I'll mention that while this pump is on the louder side, I've already gotten use to it and actually prefer it because if there's ANY issues with fuel delivery to the pump, it's screaming at me to let me know, unlike other intank pumps where you might not be so lucky. It seems as though the driver's side of the tank is getting drained faster than the passenger side due to how I have the lines routed. This probably could've been prevented had I only been able to Y in the lines below the tank. But being that it would involve going under the axles to do this, I chose to go up and over the rear subframe and Y behind it on the other side. Therefore the fuel level probably can't level out, thus draining one side faster than the other. It started giving me this issue at around 1/4 of a tank on my gauge but I realize that there's 2 sending units and if one is higher than the other, the actual amount might be off, but at least the gauge is telling me where the problem would begin to start.


a little trick that i did on mine to quiet the pump down was to put rubber isolator studs between the mount and the pump. i used jegs pn: 555-40687 on mine and my pump is fairly quiet.
 
I might do that eventually, and I've already looked into that. But at the moment, I've just been more concerned about getting everything running right and getting a clean pass....which still eludes me at the moment.
 
So I've been busy trying to sort out other issues with the car and so this has been on the back burner lately. I wanna try to get the revisions done up later this month. But I've been thinking of possible issues and solutions. Looking for opinions.

For starters, I'll need an external pump to deliver fuel from one side of the tank to the other. If it pumps to fast, the drivers side will constantly be low and I'm concerned about over heating that pump, and in turn, also heating fuel. Colder fuel is better fuel. I'm also on E85 so that is important as well. Ideas? Good external pump choices to handle this?

The other issue I thought about is the fuel level sending unit situation. The is a fwd car, converted to awd, and now I need the sending unit on the passenger side to be the only one to work because that's the side I need to worry about that's supplying fuel to the pump. Anyone know how to delete the wiring to the drivers side sending unit and have just the passenger side work and be accurate?

Appreciate any advice on this. Trying to get some stuff done to get it back to the track asap.
 
i wonder if this micro pump would work for you. its not a high flow pump by any means and it is e85 friendly. im also curious if there would be a way to have it cycle based on fuel level so youre not running the driver side saddle too low on fuel
 

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you could always get a voltage controller and that way you can actually manage the pump and its output so if its fast you lower it so it pumps slower, its more cost but it is a key way to do this type of thing, or install a low level sensor to kick in and level the sides out some,
 
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