Replaced Timing belt barely starts but drives perfect

Sk8er07999 · Dec 1, 2003

Ok here's what happend. Balance shaft belt broke without harming Timing belt. So my girlfriends dad (he's a retired mechanic) and I pulled everything out to replace the belts now here's the wierd part. Before removing the T-belt we planned on aligning the cam sprockets, oil pump, and crank. The book says we should have to turn the motor over by hand up to eight times or something until they all line up. We turned it over like thirty times and not once did they all line up. Not even close. The cams did but when those where lined up every time something else was off. We where both like WTF? According to the book there is no way the car would even run. So we decided to make sure it ran before taking the belt off. I jumped in the car and turned the key. It started right up perfectly! Since there was no water pump we turned the car off after a few seconds. After thinking about it for a while we decided to mark everything as it was and pull of the belt. Now before installing the belt we aligned the crank to the TDC mark on the block, the oilpump to it's mark, and the notches in the cam gears where aligned together as well as with the top of the head. (oh yeah and the b-shaft we had all aligned with the belt on too). With the belt on we turned the motor over by hand to make sure it didn't stop like the valves where hitting or something. Seemed fine and after turning it over time after time everything lined up perfectly like it says it should in the book belt was tight auto tensioner was perfect. So we decided to start it. What do you know it started right up! Wierd.... Shut the car off, put everything back on. Went to start it and batt was dead. So we jumped the car and it wouldn't start. finally got it to start but this time it sounded like I had cams with like a 5 foot lift! Barely ran but sounded cool. :thumb:

Stared at it for a while and decided to take if for a drive. Car runs perfect! Has just as much power if not more then before! Also my oil pressure is alot better as well. No valve tick or lifter tick either very pleased but the thing idles like a piece of junk. When it's could it refuses to start and when it does it's like I have massive cams. After reaching operating temp it goes away but has the worst idle I have ever seen. anywhere from 600-1500 and it just doens't want to go idle. What the hell? Thanks to anyone who read the story. But it doesn't end there noticed car was leaking a ton of oil. Drove back home, pulled apart and oil was coming out from behind the auto tensioner, we forget to fully tighten it down. Who knew the holes go all the way in... BUT this gave us a chance to make sure everything aligned. And it DID! put it back to together and still barely started when cold and when hot it has the worst idle I have ever seen. AND IT NEVER IDLED LIKE THIS BEFORE T&B SHAFT BELT CHANGES. Whats the prob? IAC? BISS? When the car is running I unplugged the harness to the IAC motor and it doesn't even have an affect on the idle at all. Thats wierd. I am thinking bad IAC. Do you think thats a good bet? I don't know wtf is goin on and it's really getting to me. Any help would be great thanks.

BUCK · Dec 1, 2003

For starters if your Timing Belt got oil soaked it's history - it will strip teeth at the crank - been there - done that - Change it before it jumps & bends the valves.

Sk8er07999 · Dec 2, 2003

T-belt was fine, It wasn't soaked at all. The olil ran down from behind the tensioners and out the bottom of the timing belt cover. The cover is a busted at the bottom so it just dripped right out onto the splash gaurd then to the ground. Belt is fine

shelbyz · Dec 2, 2003

something similar happened to my car after the timing belt was replaced.

it was because before it was changed the timing was a little off, and got worse after the change. my idle was crap it was everywhere like yours, and then eventually it would just shut off, but up high it was fine.

find some way to check the timing and if its off fix it

Sk8er07999 · Dec 2, 2003

Everything was lined up when we checked it the second time. Are you talking about ignition timing? I didn't think there was a way to adjust ignition timing on my car. Check timing with a timing light on the crank pulley?

RoasT BeeF · Dec 2, 2003

My only guess would be that the balance shaft is out of phase.

Sk8er07999 · Dec 2, 2003

Balance shaft out of phase? What do you mean? It's not lined up right?

RoasT BeeF · Dec 3, 2003

Hey I just noticed that you are from CO.....where about?

If you go to vfaq.com and read up on how to do the timing it will explain how to make sure the balance shaft is in phase. You should be able to check it without having to take the belt back off by rotating the crank until all the marks line up and stick a screw driver in the back of the block as it shows in the vfaq.

If you are not to far from Greeley or dont mind going the distance I would be happy to help you out.

Sk8er07999 · Dec 3, 2003

Yeah i printed the article from vfaq but just kinda skimmed it because I had help. I will have to take a closer look at that.

GTM · Dec 3, 2003

Originally posted by Sk8er07999
Balance shaft out of phase? What do you mean? It's not lined up right?

I don't see how the balance shaft is going to cause this problem unless CAS driven. Otherwise just nasty vibration.

_If_ you have done the timing right and it pretty much sounds like you have, recheck the steps with the Vfaq print-out.

It's sounding more like a vacuum leak, hoses plugged into the wrong fittings, PCV valve. Don't have a book for your model but the CAS setting can cause these symptoms. Check that all temp sensors/senders are functioning correctly. Check BISS screw setting, I find 3 complete turns out from seat is a good place to start.

I got burned on a bad diagnosis on my part of recent with bad spark plug wires that were intermittant ok and then fail only to fix themselves for a while. Spark Plugs? O2 sensor?

You could also try disconnecting battery for 30 seconds so ECU will reset.

Keep us posted as you rule these things out until you find the problem.

Cheers,
GTM

Sk8er07999 · Dec 3, 2003

Yeah I was thinking about that too but we didn't touch any vacum lines or the pcv valve etc. Everything was fine before we did the work. It's like it almost seems like it misfires at low rpm. But seems to get better as the temp increases. I am almost thinkin fouled plugs or somethin. You know the vfaq about idle surge it says to unplug the harnes connected to the IAC and the idle should stabalize around 1500. But when I unplugged it there was no change at all. Leading me to believe I have a bad IAC and need to test it using a multimeter like he said

GTM · Dec 3, 2003

Originally posted by Sk8er07999
Yeah I was thinking about that too but we didn't touch any vacum lines or the pcv valve etc. Everything was fine before we did the work. It's like it almost seems like it misfires at low rpm. But seems to get better as the temp increases. I am almost thinkin fouled plugs or somethin....

You have _all_ the info, there is no substitute for doing the work. If you don't have the multimeter, go buy one, if you don't have the spark plugs go buy them, pick one of these things and get busy we can't fix it for you.

Cheers,
GTM

Sk8er07999 · Dec 3, 2003

Ok thanks for the info ^ Just wonderin if anybody had any different opinions

jpolizo · Dec 3, 2003

Originally posted by Sk8er07999
Yeah i printed the article from vfaq but just kinda skimmed it because I had help. I will have to take a closer look at that.

Hi there. It sounds to me like you are taking a bit too cavalier of an attitude about this. You can't "skim" the VFAQ. In your original post you mention "The book says we should have to turn the motor over by hand up to eight times or something..." It's not something, it's six revolutions.

This part of working on our engines is very precise. You can't be off, at all, and you must understand exactly what's going on. It doesn't sound to me like you do. Your initial indication that you could never get the marks to line up is kind of weird, don't you think. What's the assumption here? Do you think you have some kind of different 4G63 that uses different timing marks or something? Not likely, is it. You are looking at something wrong.

The symptoms you describe sound like the timing is still off. The fact that what was right looked wrong to you doesn't bode well when it looks "right" to you.

Start back at the beginning.

Sk8er07999 · Dec 4, 2003

ok this is how it goes. Lines never not once even came close to lining up BEFORE WE TOOK THE BELT OFF!!!! and the car ran fine. CAMS LINED UP BUT CAMS+CRANK+OIL PUMP never not once lined up before we took it off. OK also I don't have the book in front of me to look at how many times it was that you need to turn the motor over before everything should line up I just geussed. At the time we knew what it was. We turned it over at least 30 times and it never lined up. NO JOKE!! I had a mechanic doing 90% of the work for me and he saw everything. We didn't half ass anything so don't start saying we might have overlooked stuff because we didn't and we also checked it twice. Also tonight I did the simple things. Replaced plugs same shitty idle, Reset ecu same thing, but I pulled the harness to the IAC and idle raised to 2000. Put back in same thing.

GTM · Dec 4, 2003

Originally posted by Sk8er07999
ok this is how it goes. Lines never not once even came close to lining up BEFORE WE TOOK THE BELT OFF!!!! and the car ran fine. CAMS LINED UP BUT
...

Lets back up for a moment.

Did you paint the marks on the sprockets?? Did you take pictures before and after?

There are 2 sets of marks 180 degrees apart on each sprocket, what you must remember is the dowel pins must both be up and TDC #1 for them to be in time. The other marks align with the edge of the head. Did you mix them up? I don't think it would run. Take a look at the picts on Vfaq, look at the cam lobes and compare to what you have.

I don't see anything cavalier, he's trying to solve a problem. As for that statement that rotating the engine x times and certain marks will be in alignment made no sense to me to this day and I have timed hundreds of DOHC engines. In any case I dismissed it and went about my business after trying to figure out what the blazes they were trying to say.

The exhaust can be advanced 1 tooth and the engine will run, the intake can be retarded 1 tooth and it will run just not very well.

Cheers,
GTM

jpolizo · Dec 4, 2003

The point of rotating the engine 'x' times is that the marks can line up but the internal parts of the engine (like the oil pump balance shaft) can still be out of alignment. It's not just marks.

That's the point -- this is a very precise operation. You can't just look at marks. There is one whole heckuva lot of stuff that needs to be correct and some of it you can't directly see (like the position of the balance shaft weights).

GTM · Dec 4, 2003

Originally posted by jpolizo

...
It's not just marks.

That's the point -- this is a very precise operation. You can't just look at marks. There is one whole heckuva lot of stuff that needs to be correct and some of it you can't directly see (like the position of the balance shaft weights).

You are trying to make something it's not. These things break both the oil pump/balance shaft and main belt. Now you got nuttin. Are you telling me I can't index the cams, crank, and dowel in the balance shaft inside 5 min... nonsense. 1&4 piston are 3/4 way up, set cams so #4 is on the rock, pull crank to TDC, rotate balance shaft insert rod the engine is timed. Slap the belts on, snug tensioner, check work.

If you find some fallacy in what I wrote in those 3 sentences please let me know for I must be doing something wrong.

Granted if you don't know what you are doing it can be unnerving to the novice. Sure you could leave all the cam followers out if you are worried, then move crank to the 90 degree position and install them after the belt is stretch.

Cheers,
GTM

jpolizo · Dec 5, 2003

Well, if that were in English I might be able to make something of it. Gibberish is not terribly useful. Are you implying you know something by using a bunch of slang terms?

Yes, you can get some of this wrong and it will still run (like getting the balance shaft out of phase); I suspect that's what you've been doing no matter how many tens of thousands you have done.

If you really understand this .. then explain it.

BUCK · Dec 5, 2003

I understood it - every damn word - fact is anyone doing it for the FIRST time needs to be very dilligent - but some people you can'thelp.

GTM · Dec 5, 2003

Originally posted by jpolizo
Well, if that were in English I might be able to make something of it. Gibberish is not terribly useful. Are you implying you know something by using a bunch of slang terms?
...
If you really understand this .. then explain it.

Go look at my profile, do a search for all my posts then get back to me. I gather you want to be contentious and I'm not here for you to try and play with me.

Buck, you got that right.

Cheers,
GTM

jpolizo · Dec 5, 2003

Originally posted by GTM
Go look at my profile, do a search for all my posts then get back to me. I gather you want to be contentious and I'm not here for you to try and play with me.

Buck, you got that right.

Cheers,
GTM

I have less time to search for all your posts than I do to read stuff like "snug the tensioner".

As a wise person once said: There isn't anything wrong with having nothing to say unless you insist on saying it.

We're trying to figure something out here -- if you have something to contribute, then contribute it. Snug is not a technical term; nor is "the rock". "Rotate balance" doesn't mean squat. Rotate it how? To where? How do you test it for correctness?

GTM · Dec 5, 2003

Originally posted by jpolizo
I have less time to search for all your posts than I do to read stuff like "snug the tensioner".

As a wise person once said:...

We're trying to figure something out here -- if you have something to contribute, then contribute it. Snug is not a technical term; nor is "the rock". "Rotate balance" doesn't mean squat. Rotate it how? To where? How do you test it for correctness?

I don't understand people like you, the first sentence you write in this thread you assault the kid with cavalier ... a more approriate word might have been insouciance but that too would have been insulting. I don't think you have read the thread or you would have realized you wern't the only person contributing to helping the guy out.

You want to know percise, camshafts verniers with 132 permutations each and the crank with 131.

Just for you since you want to try and be more insulting, a search found 802 instances of the word rock, 167 instances of the word snug, squat was found in 79 posts and rotate balance was found in 31 posts, and snug the tensioner was found 5 times.

Some people will use the word ignorant but that would be insulting / inflamitory so I much prefer uninformed. In other forms nobody would have questioned what I wrote. There is a commonality in all inline 4 cylinder engines when you understand that maybe you won't need to try and impress some old fart like me.

Another wise man said "better to keep one's mouth shut and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

Cheers,
GTM

jpolizo · Dec 5, 2003

Hey, I searched on the word "search" and found 3686 occurences! Your point was what? How's about we search for the word "the" next?

As to commonality, verniers, and all that other stuff designed to impress: it was you who indicated that you did not understand why rotating a fixed number of times returned all components to base alignment. If you don't understand that then you don't really understand the 4G63 although you might be able to get one to run kinda sorta.

The whole point of the "cavalier" "assault" is that this is a pretty precise business here. A little more off than he probably is right now and he's going to be repairing things. When I learned mechanics you didn't approximate things like this -- I had to be right on the nose or I got told much worse than I was "cavalier". I guess we're from different schools.

Back to the topic at hand ...

bdropped · Dec 5, 2003

I had the same problem as it turned out the Idle Speed Controller went out. It just so happened to go out when i changed the belts. i have changed belts on 5 dsms and out of the 5 i have found 1 that the marks did not line up right and it ran fine. it looked like the cam gear was a goof up at the factory.

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Replaced Timing belt barely starts but drives perfect

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