can u be a little more specific?

Originally posted by Stony
when I accelarate harder the sound of the car sounds like raddeling or something like that, its hard to explain, but the weird thing is that it only does it sometimes, sometimes its fine. I dont feel any loss in power though and it didnt used to do it, so I think that theres a problem!

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Well its not like something is hitting something, its more like the problem is either in the engine or the drive train, I dont know how to better explain this

Originally posted by Stony
Well its not like something is hitting something, its more like the problem is either in the engine or the drive train, I dont know how to better explain this

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Geepers, I don't like making fun of spelling but this is really pushing the limit. RATTLING!

Did you change brands or grades of gasoline?

I'm thinking you are describing what it called ping, pinging, or pre-ignition which is caused by too much timing advance or poor grade of gasoline. Some unscrupulous gasoline dealers will substitute a lower grade of gas for a higher grade gas to maximize profits especially now with gas approaching $2.00 / gal.

If this is not what you are trying to explain then try again.

Cheers,
GTM

Originally posted by GTM


Geepers, I don't like making fun of spelling but this is really pushing the limit. RATTLING!

Did you change brands or grades of gasoline?

I'm thinking you are describing what it called ping, pinging, or pre-ignition which is caused by too much timing advance or poor grade of gasoline. Some unscrupulous gasoline dealers will substitute a lower grade of gas for a higher grade gas to maximize profits especially now with gas approaching $2.00 / gal.

If this is not what you are trying to explain then try again.

Cheers,
GTM

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Sorry for the misspelling, I'm a foreigner, , but thats what i think it might be too, or something like it, I went driviving last night, and it was running great. the car is running rich, cause I have a 255 lph fuel pump, and I havent installed the AFC yet, so I think thats what making it sound like raddeling (is this right?)

Sounds like spark knock a little. Typically it's heard under moderate to heavy acceleration. Find a thread about using mopar combustion chamber cleaner on turbo cars. Alot of spark knock is caused by the fuel charge igniting before it's supposed to. This causes the piston to fight the rotation of the crank and causes your noise. The mopar combustion chamber cleaner will help get rid of carbon deposits in the cylinder (top of piston). These deposits cause hot spots. These hot spots ignite the fuel charge and cause the spark knock.
This is a good product to use once or twice a year. Whether this is addressing your problem or not... I dunno.
Doug

Originally posted by Doug99RS
Sounds like spark knock a little. Typically it's heard under moderate to heavy acceleration. Find a thread about using mopar combustion chamber cleaner on turbo cars. Alot of spark knock is caused by the fuel charge igniting before it's supposed to. This causes the piston to fight the rotation of the crank and causes your noise. The mopar combustion chamber cleaner will help get rid of carbon deposits in the cylinder (top of piston). These deposits cause hot spots. These hot spots ignite the fuel charge and cause the spark knock.
This is a good product to use once or twice a year. Whether this is addressing your problem or not... I dunno.
Doug

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Thanx a lot, I'll look into that, but how bad is it for the engine?

Well, alot of cars do it. Most of the applications I've seen it on were v8 chrysler products. All of which have not been in performance applications though. For them... a little pinging here and there will not shorten the engine's life substantially. However, when you get in to modifying your engine/car and demanding alot of it on a daily basis I would suggest finding a way to reduce or eliminating it. On a turbo car especially since you're dealing with higher pressures in the combustion chamber... raising pressure will raise temperature, raising temperatures will set off the fuel charge sooner and sooner. So if you plan on upping the boost expect the spark knock to get worse and the effects to be more damaging as well.
D

Originally posted by Stony

Thanx a lot, I'll look into that, but how bad is it for the engine?

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Hi Stony: See if you can get the correct spelling on that word. The letter "d" and "t" are difficult for some people.

If the noise is in fact pinging it would be unusual this time of year for it's most often associated with hot weather and as mentioned by another poster medium too heavy acceleration at perhaps to low a RPM.

There is danger if you allow this to exist for some period of time while driving such as going up a long mountain road pulling a trailer. Under these conditions you can get the pistons so hot they will melt a hole big enough to put you thumb through. Driving around town you don't usually keep it in that gear long enough to get it that hot. However, pinging is not usually associated with an engine which is running rich so we have some contradictory information which I can't really state for a fact this is your problem.

My advice would be to go to a dealer and ask for a good mechanic to go on a test ride with you doing the driving so you can make it happen for the mechanic and tell him when it happens.

You could have the timing retarded a few degrees (2-4) might fix it. You could try buying gasoline from another company that has never given you problems and you could also buy an additive which will boost the octane rating.

Let us know what happens.

Cheers,
GTM

This is a post I just put in a the tuner forum since it's somewhat relevant I'll cut and paste it in.
First off... I'm not a turbo tuner. I don't have one and don't claim to know how to tune them.

But I do know a thing or two and hopefully can help to clarify and enlighten a few.

The theory of operation of the knock sensor is as follows:
The knock sensor is mounted on the cylinder block below the intake manifold. The knock sensor is comprimised of thin piezo-electric ceramic discs bonded to a metal diaphragm. When engine knock occurs, the diaphragm vibrates along with the piezo-electric discs, producing an electrical signal. The signal is used by the PCM (ECU for you turbo boys) to adjust ignition timing to eliminate the knock condition.

Knock is a vibration. A vibration is caused by something in the engine not working in harmony with the other rotating components. By adjusting the timing... the theory is that the vibration is caused by one or more cylinders are igniting at the improper point during the rotation of the crank. When the fuel charge ignites prematurely then it tries to send the piston and rod back the way it just came thus one cylinder is trying to fight the rotation of the crank while the other three are going with the flow.

There are at least two things that can cause this. One is the intentional igniting of the spark plug before the cylinder is at top dead center which could be corrected by adjusting timing. The second is the ignition of the fuel charge before the piston is at top dead center regardless of the spark plugs participation is the combustion sequence. There is normally only one thing that causes this. Too high of temperatures in the combustion chamber.

High temperatures can be caused by numerous things though. Carbon build up on the piston and cylinder head surface inside the cylinder can retain heat, this heat is a hot spot and a hot spot will then ignite the fuel charge too soon. Too lean of a fuel mixture will also increase temperatures resulting in the fuel charge being ignited. Also any time you raise pressure you also raise temperatures. Thus... too much boost can raise pressures too high and without the proper fuel mixture you can't do anything to drop the temperature. Fuel can work wonders. Not only are we talking about something that is designed to blow up. But it can also be used to cool cylinder head runners, intake valves, pistons and cylinder temperatures down to where they are supposed to be.

That's all dealing with the air fuel charge and temperatures that affect your precious knock/pre-ignition/detonation. But there's also the question of a physical condition that causes a vibration. Remember the knock sensor picks up vibration. So... removal of balance shafts which are designed to counter-act engine vibration, installation of an underdrive pulley which does away with the vibration dampener/harmonic balancer, improperly balanced pistons, rods, cranks, or flywheels, uneven carbon build up on pistons, oil caked on to the crank, hell... even a clutch that is worn unevenly theoretically can cause uneven weight distribution which will add to vibrations which can be interpretted as "knock".

The list is really quite large as to what can cause these things ya'll call knock.

Well mine does the exact same thing but I crawled under my car to look at my exhaust piping and noticed it was rubbing up against the bottom of my car, and it only did it when i accelerated heavily, I just did the ghetto thing and wedged a stick in betweenthe pipe and the place it was hitting and the rattle stopped.

Originally posted by Doug99RS
This is a post I just put in a the tuner forum since it's somewhat relevant I'll cut and paste it in.
...
The list is really quite large as to what can cause these things ya'll call knock.

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I was relating his complaint to what would best be described as a ping which doesn't always sound like a ping on some engines. Since it comes and goes we can pretty much eliminate a significant number on that list.

When I'm thinking ping it's with the idea of a hot spot in the combustion chamber which prematurely ignites in a particular place and starts a flame front which then is met with the flame front caused by the spark plug firing. When these 2 flame fronts are in a critical location they cause a significant collision and it makes what we call a ping. Perhaps the sound of a balloon popping helps to understand how much noise is generated with only a couple lbs pressure differential colliding. With our engine it becomes a waste of available power for instead of an even burning and the resultant gas expansion forcing the piston down it's like a hammer hitting the top of the piston.

Besides the potential for burning holes in pistons if it occurs on a regular basis on one side at 90 degrees to crankshaft rotation it will slam the piston skirt against the cylinder wall and cause premature piston, ring, and cylinder wear. This is the knock sound that you will sometimes hear besides the pinging.

Cheers,
GTM

Originally posted by RSTsoon
Well mine does the exact same thing but I crawled under my car to look at my exhaust piping and noticed it was rubbing up against the bottom of my car,
...

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He did say he thought it wasn't anything hitting the car but that would be a good laugh on me if it turned out to be the exhaust pipe.

I've had some pretty wierd noises and wobbles in my day, most memorable was a big wad of bubble gum which stuck to my tire. It was enough to throw the balance off and cause the 40 mph shimmy but at the same time it made a strange sound which you wouldn't have guessed in a million years it was freshly disposed gum.

Cheers,
GTM

I have the same rattling noise I think. When im going around 50kph, it sounds like a coil rattling or something. I think its the exhaust or something...

Originally posted by 604CruisinCroat
I have the same rattling noise I think. When im going around 50kph, it sounds like a coil rattling or something. I think its the exhaust or something...

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ok guys, first of all I'm not going to use rattling anymore, I'll call it vibration from here on, but lemme throw this at you, last nite the vibration only happened once, and here how it happened, I was making a left turn I downshifted into second, turned and gave it about 1/2 throttle, and once through the turn I floored it. The vibration started when I was in the middle of the turn throughout the whole second gear. I also appologize for any spelling errors or typos I made, hopefully you can figure out what I'm trying to say.

Originally posted by GTM


He did say he thought it wasn't anything hitting the car but that would be a good laugh on me if it turned out to be the exhaust pipe.

I've had some pretty wierd noises and wobbles in my day, most memorable was a big wad of bubble gum which stuck to my tire. It was enough to throw the balance off and cause the 40 mph shimmy but at the same time it made a strange sound which you wouldn't have guessed in a million years it was freshly disposed gum.

Cheers,
GTM

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My frieds have said that its a AWD DSM, they make A lot of differnet and weird noise, most of it can just be ignored!

Originally posted by Stony

My frieds have said that its a AWD DSM, they make A lot of differnet and weird noise, most of it can just be ignored!

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You have to be careful with the free advice you get, though well meaning they are not making the car payments. I'd still opt for having a professional take a ride around the block, you may have to pay a minimum charge but at least you will have a formulated opinion rather than some urban legend.

Cheers,
GTM

Originally posted by Stony
ok guys, first of all I'm not going to use rattling anymore, I'll call it vibration from here on, but lemme throw this at you, last nite the vibration only happened once, and here how it happened, I was making a left turn I downshifted into second, turned and gave it about 1/2 throttle, and once through the turn I floored it. The vibration started when I was in the middle of the turn throughout the whole second gear. I also appologize for any spelling errors or typos I made, hopefully you can figure out what I'm trying to say.

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Ah.....Like i was saying, during that turn your exhaust piping might of shifted a bit and rubbed up against the under part of the car, mine does that too, sometimes it even comes off the hangers

Originally posted by RSTsoon


Ah.....Like i was saying, during that turn your exhaust piping might of shifted a bit and rubbed up against the under part of the car, mine does that too, sometimes it even comes off the hangers

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This is insane!!! Not your reply but the situation as presented.

I could name 1000 things which could cause a noise /vibration and still be off the mark.

The problem is this:
_not_ identifying all the information available to the driver and not communicated here. Determining if it's in the front, rear, left, right, inside, outside, top, bottom. What senses are used to identify the source, hear, smell, feel, sight.

Sometimes an empty large parking lot with a friend outside the car can help isolate noises. This brings me back to a professional who knows what a drive shaft rotating mass and ring when hitting the body is much different from a worn engine mount allowing the engine twist and thus loading the exhaust pipe to hit the floor pan which could be felt in your feet. A tire sidewall blister will cause a vibration while making the opposite side turn... a left turn the right wheel is loaded more than the left. This would be felt mostly in the hands on the steering wheel and might be felt while driving straight as the speed increases to the 25-45 mph where tires give the most feedback into the steering. For all we know all the lug nuts are loose and the wheel is about to fall off, we can't diagnose and solve this problem without having all the information made available instead of bits and pieces leaving us to arrive at a totally obtuse conclusion. I've given this way too much time and energy.

Cheers,
GTM

Just go to the link in my sig. And go from there. GTM has always had informative information I've found and he gives good advice. But if it falls on deaf ears... why bother.

Originally posted by Doug99RS
Just go to the link in my sig. And go from there. GTM has always had informative information I've found and he gives good advice. But if it falls on deaf ears... why bother.

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Hi Doug I'll post a reply to the PM here: I posted a rather scating reply a week or so back when my nose told me I was being used. The wealth of knowledge I've amassed doesn't come from sitting at a keyboard but having been there and lived the life. I've had customers do the same thing as has been reported here, the p*sser is you can't really charge for what you don't fix. I learned a long time ago spending 5-10 min on a road test with the driver will result in isolating the problem when countless other times nothing was heard (that can also be abused when some mechanic doesn't want to know), could not dublicate.

Some people have "performance anxiety" when it comes to writing and posting, others would just rather write and continue to write rather than get up and find the problem. That may be the case here, hard to tell but I've exhausted all the immediate thoughts on the subject and draw weary of wasting my time with "sounds like" ...

In a way it's like crying wolf, we can only assume this is now not a dangerous situation and doesn't warrant my high priced labor. Being a good diagnostician also sometimes requires a couch and a therapist to hold someone's hand. I have no problem wearing that hat too and many others but I've no license for these... Sagacity and perspicacity come in many forms, as in my earlier referenced caustic post I sometimes think some of these people are plants for publishing companies who wish to pilfer as much knowledge as they can without paying royalties for professional opinions. Go to your Doctor and ask for free advice, good luck... it ain't gonna happen.

So if some sage is willing to expose the difference I'd like to have that input for MY BOOK. Hells bells I could write a couple lengthy chapters on all the scams which have been run past me.

Cheers,
GTM

Originally posted by GTM


Hi Doug I'll post a reply to the PM here: I posted a rather scating reply a week or so back when my nose told me I was being used. The wealth of knowledge I've amassed doesn't come from sitting at a keyboard but having been there and lived the life. I've had customers do the same thing as has been reported here, the p*sser is you can't really charge for what you don't fix. I learned a long time ago spending 5-10 min on a road test with the driver will result in isolating the problem when countless other times nothing was heard (that can also be abused when some mechanic doesn't want to know), could not dublicate.

Some people have "performance anxiety" when it comes to writing and posting, others would just rather write and continue to write rather than get up and find the problem. That may be the case here, hard to tell but I've exhausted all the immediate thoughts on the subject and draw weary of wasting my time with "sounds like" ...

In a way it's like crying wolf, we can only assume this is now not a dangerous situation and doesn't warrant my high priced labor. Being a good diagnostician also sometimes requires a couch and a therapist to hold someone's hand. I have no problem wearing that hat too and many others but I've no license for these... Sagacity and perspicacity come in many forms, as in my earlier referenced caustic post I sometimes think some of these people are plants for publishing companies who wish to pilfer as much knowledge as they can without paying royalties for professional opinions. Go to your Doctor and ask for free advice, good luck... it ain't gonna happen.

So if some sage is willing to expose the difference I'd like to have that input for MY BOOK. Hells bells I could write a couple lengthy chapters on all the scams which have been run past me.

Cheers,
GTM

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Well, I want to thank all of you guys with your help, and I'm not trying to steal any of your knowledge and go sell it to other people if thats what GTM means, I'm a fairily new owner of a DSM, and I just want to get some ground under my feet before I go to a mechanic with my problem so I dont get screwed over. I just hope that nothing major happens to my car before summer, because this summer I'm going to rebuild the engine tranny and do a turbo upgrade. I hope I understand you right GTM, but isnt that what this website is for, sharing knoledge, and I promise you, when I gain this knowlede I assure to pass it on to other members here in the future.

Stony

Originally posted by Stony

Well, I want to thank all of you guys with your help, and I'm not trying to steal any of your knowledge and go sell it to other people if thats what GTM means, I'm a fairily new owner of a DSM, and I just want to get some ground under my feet before I go to a mechanic with my problem so I dont get screwed over. ...
I hope I understand you right GTM, but isnt that what this website is for, sharing knoledge, and I promise you, when I gain this knowlede I assure to pass it on to other members here in the future.
Stony

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Stony, your dictionary got a good work out eh? I don't know for a fact there are any such people here on DSMtuners. I read so many crazy posts AND replies that almost seem like they have been scripted to evoke the greatest diversity in responses so that once in a while I vent. It's sometimes good to lock and load one round for effect.

Nobody is forcing me to be here, and I'm not getting paid hence getting all the info becomes important so I when offer what HOPEFULLY will be a solution to the problem it doesn't make me look like a fool. In this case the initial information took us off on the pinging thread only to learn there was more info which blew that idea right out the window and put egg on my and other people's face. Yes, the website is for sharing knowledge but when it seems it's being ignored in favor of urban legends or facts not being offered / witheld it causes me to lift an eyebrow as to the intent.

There is a saying about "a little knowledge is dangerous" which can get you into more trouble if you should want to come across as being wiser than is factual. Some mechanics will correct you, some mechanics won't give you the time of day, some mechanics will give you such a load of nonsense which you will nod you head in complete agreement so they get their jollies at your expense. The latter are the ones who will in all probability put the screws to you. There are all kinds of people out there, mechanics and customers alike who will try to take advantage of a situation. Your best bet is to be straight arrow, informative but not come across as being someone who knows it all. I knew someone who constantly had problems so I offered my services, he informed me I couldn't afford to work on his problems for he liked to sue people that worked for him and that's how he made his money. Yikes, no mechanic would touch his problems with that attitude. I have met people I do not like and they couldn't pay me enough for the aggrivation would cause more problems than any profit I might have made. ... 'sorry I'm busy this MONTH, try Joe's down the block'.

You have been offered ideas which required your participitation to test them out and report your findings. Once I was able to determine there was not enough info here I suggested you take it to a professional and go for a test drive. You are not obligated to have them do ANY repairs, only give you some idea what is wrong and how critical the problem may be. _IF_ you don't have the money for those repairs, there is no shame in that. To my knowledge you have not done this which has ticked some people off for it's frustrating to be writing all this only to have more info tossed our way which doesn't stand a snow ball's chance in hell of solving the problem without all the info.

They may not charge you anything for the information. Don't go early in the morning for most places will be swamped as they and the mechanics line up their day to be most effective. 10-11a or the middle of the afternoon. You could ask for the service manager and tell him you would like to know if your life is in danger, should take it home and park it, or ignore it until you can afford to have it fixed. You can put some humor in with it, remember you catch more flies with honey, don't be too familiar and take liberties like: "Yo bub how about some help here..."

If you have a mechanic riding with you and they don't charge, give him $5-$10 tip if they solve your problem or at least enough info that will lead to solving the problem. Don't tip the service manager but offer to buy a dozen or so donuts. You are not coming across as a big spender, you are asking for a piece of a person's LIFE and that's worth something and shows respect.

Hope some of this sinks in and works for you. If you are not going to listen then I'm going to shut up for it's a waste of my and other people's time who are trying to help you.

Cheers,
GTM

Well, I have had a rattle many times, and its just a heat shield on top of the exhaust system. Almost every car will have this happen at some time. For the most part these can be removed, or else just tie it down with wire. Just a simple thing to check first.

Originally posted by GTM


Stony, your dictionary got a good work out eh? I don't know for a fact there are any such people here on DSMtuners. I read so many crazy posts AND replies that almost seem like they have been scripted to evoke the greatest diversity in responses so that once in a while I vent. It's sometimes good to lock and load one round for effect.

Nobody is forcing me to be here, and I'm not getting paid hence getting all the info becomes important so I when offer what HOPEFULLY will be a solution to the problem it doesn't make me look like a fool. In this case the initial information took us off on the pinging thread only to learn there was more info which blew that idea right out the window and put egg on my and other people's face. Yes, the website is for sharing knowledge but when it seems it's being ignored in favor of urban legends or facts not being offered / witheld it causes me to lift an eyebrow as to the intent.

There is a saying about "a little knowledge is dangerous" which can get you into more trouble if you should want to come across as being wiser than is factual. Some mechanics will correct you, some mechanics won't give you the time of day, some mechanics will give you such a load of nonsense which you will nod you head in complete agreement so they get their jollies at your expense. The latter are the ones who will in all probability put the screws to you. There are all kinds of people out there, mechanics and customers alike who will try to take advantage of a situation. Your best bet is to be straight arrow, informative but not come across as being someone who knows it all. I knew someone who constantly had problems so I offered my services, he informed me I couldn't afford to work on his problems for he liked to sue people that worked for him and that's how he made his money. Yikes, no mechanic would touch his problems with that attitude. I have met people I do not like and they couldn't pay me enough for the aggrivation would cause more problems than any profit I might have made. ... 'sorry I'm busy this MONTH, try Joe's down the block'.

You have been offered ideas which required your participitation to test them out and report your findings. Once I was able to determine there was not enough info here I suggested you take it to a professional and go for a test drive. You are not obligated to have them do ANY repairs, only give you some idea what is wrong and how critical the problem may be. _IF_ you don't have the money for those repairs, there is no shame in that. To my knowledge you have not done this which has ticked some people off for it's frustrating to be writing all this only to have more info tossed our way which doesn't stand a snow ball's chance in hell of solving the problem without all the info.

They may not charge you anything for the information. Don't go early in the morning for most places will be swamped as they and the mechanics line up their day to be most effective. 10-11a or the middle of the afternoon. You could ask for the service manager and tell him you would like to know if your life is in danger, should take it home and park it, or ignore it until you can afford to have it fixed. You can put some humor in with it, remember you catch more flies with honey, don't be too familiar and take liberties like: "Yo bub how about some help here..."

If you have a mechanic riding with you and they don't charge, give him $5-$10 tip if they solve your problem or at least enough info that will lead to solving the problem. Don't tip the service manager but offer to buy a dozen or so donuts. You are not coming across as a big spender, you are asking for a piece of a person's LIFE and that's worth something and shows respect.

Hope some of this sinks in and works for you. If you are not going to listen then I'm going to shut up for it's a waste of my and other people's time who are trying to help you.

Cheers,
GTM

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well, it defenetly helps me, gives me new ideas of what might be wrong and your thoughts on mechanics are real good, and ofcourse I'm going to remember this cause I read it. I dont read much but if I do, I remember it well.

As long as you can understand what I'm trying to type, I'll be happy because I get my point across. I have been in the states for 5 years, and I think I have done a swell job on my english, but you should try to learn some Estonian. At least look into it, and let me know what you think.

I totally understand when you said that there are all kinds of people out there. I myself have my own business, and I see new faces all the time, and yeah, one has to stay tough when confronted by some of these people.

Anyways, I'll take it to a mechanic and see what they think, if for sure its nothing urgent, then I'm just going to wait until spring, because I got a lot planned for my car. I'll just deal with it then. But I'll keep you up to date.

Thanx again for all your support,
and I will talk to you later.

Sincerely,

Stony